Ok,I skipped most of the last few pages but I'm pretty sure most of you are still complaining about smn being whatever, ending up in the over all point that smn are not only good at healing. Please, I'm told of being told this, I've pted this weekend with a smn (not saying names) who I have to say has completly pissed me off, because he'd rather summon shiva do his crappy damage and let the pld die. Here is the final logic, endo infomation, and unless you have hard, strong, proof, please, do not say I am wrong. Also a note. I am not anti smn. I still have a strong respect for smn, I still consider myself a smn, as when I talk about smn I often say "we this and that" even though i have quit smn. I also have a high respect for my ex -smn peers and friends such as Answa, Svina, and Areia. That being said:
Summoners are healers formost.
Now, I myself do not proclaim myself god of knowledge, but after leveling smn 70 fricking levels (and taking that long to finally realize this myself), I strongly believe this.
I'm going to state the points people brought up and rip them to shreds, as well as give my own point of view. But first, some things to leave out and things I do not want to heal about.
What smn can do outside of pt, what smn was designed for by S-E (please.. I'm told 3000 times ninja was not made to be a tank, get over it, {That's too bad} it turned out to be a tank, even if the frikin high evasion and agi don't scream tank [which it does], it's being used as tank), smn 70+. I might of forgot some but oh well. Here goes.
Smn are DD: No. They are not. The only DD mage is blm.Being a damage dealer means you can easily and only deal in damage, and can do it at a consistent rate. Thus, Thieves are not DD. Smn are not DD. I'm going to slap the next person that tells me SMn can outdamage drk and compare to blm. THEY CAN NOT. If you even use the word Blood Pact stop, because you are already wrong. PERHAPS if the timer was not one min, things might be different, but as is it's not the cast. Avatar damage on XP mobs (IT and VT) is horrible, and a lot of the time a pld can do more or about the same damage. Not to mention to pay mp for that, unless you use carby. (woooo -_-) To tell the truth, normal avatar melee is only useful in soloing, and I supose that is fair enough as smn melee is weak as hell, they need to kill mobs somehow alone. You can tell avatars do a lot more damage as the con of mobs drops. Anyways back to DD smn. Yes, waaaay later, at 65 (if you have fenrir) and at 70, you can deal some decent damge in a PT, but no where near what a sam, or drg, and def. a drk can deal in that one min time span. Thus smn are not DD and will never be DD.
Smn fill in support just like a rdm or bard.
Hahahaha no. I'm rdm now, and please let me be the first to tell you the two are nothing alike. And yes I have pted with a bard at the same time (Fallen is a nice bard ), and bard and rdm have about the same main duties with different perks. Now, when I say perk I'm talking about other things a job can do not based around their main purpose. Smn and bard's main purpose is refresh, and dispel, which I say off the bat smn can not do. (Please do not bring up fenrir's dispel ability, again due to that damn 1 min timer) Now, for perks rdm can help heal, help nuke to toss in some damage, and as a main perk they can weaken down the monster like hell, with high enfeebling skill.(Damn you frikin whm and blm who think your enfeebling skill is more friking important then a rdm's.) Bard's perk is heavy heavy, team mate related support, in the form of buff songs and weakening songs. (again the weaken down of monters is present in both classes to a degree, and not present at all in a smn) Now, anyone with half a brain can see a smn is no replacment at all for either bard or rdm, and never will be. Some of us have to go with gimped pt's, it's impossible to always have the ideal pt, but just realize you're not getting the same deal if you happen to go with a smn if no rdm or bards are present.
Smn can't heal naturaly so they are not main healers.
{That's too bad} As I'm sure most of you have stated and I myself have stated, ninja and pld can't tank without a subjob of war. Yes, I know there are some twists out there, and in some pt's they might work, but we are not talking about what works, only about what works best. So smn need whm sub to heal? Good. Nothing wrong with that. More on this in a bit.
Rdm make better healers then smn so why have a smn main heal when I can get a rdm? See?
Ya well lets pretend 90% of all rdm are not elvaan without serket rings and astral rings and mp gear (which only brings them up to par with taru,hume,mithra and not farther) Ok good. Now, yes it's possible for a rdm to main heal, despite their slightly smaller mp stores, in a good pt (even better if with a ninja of course), but I wouldn't recomend it unless there isn't anything else. A rdm is always better used to it's normal tasks, and that is support healing as needed freshing ect ect. However, smn are completly better healers then rdm in the same way whm are.
I think that's all... if I remember or see any new points rest assured I will coment on them. >.>
Already I have heard a lot of people stating facts that are completly wrong or mostly, and they keep defending them.
Now for the supremeness, why I believe smn are main healers and nothing else. I'm a man of logic, you prove me wrong and prove it through example or infomation, whatever, and I will bow to you. Just remember I have the pleasure of level smn to 70, so when someone says fenrir did 1300 damage on an IT mob, I know they are very likely full of bullshit, setting aside the fact that's what a drk can do with a SC + other melee + SC effect, while still doing more damage over time normally, hell a drg can.
Ok, first of all let's look at a smn's abilities. I know all the Blood Pacts by heart now. Of which do damage:
Level 70 pacts: Roughly all the same, of differents hits and elements. Only ones that don't have these are fenrir and carby. These do incredible damage on weaker mobs, and as long as a smn can avoid running out of mp and if the mob doesn't kill the avatar too fast, can rip many monsters to shred solo. In a pt setting however, they do around 400 damage for me, which is maybe one blm spell at that level. I doubt they go past 1000 at any rate on XP mobs. A Drk, sam, rng, blm,war and drg (true DD) can easily out do that. However, it is nice for throwing in some extra damage if you have perhaps a ninja tank or something, or otherwise don't end up wasting much of your mp.
Level 65 pacts. Besides carby's, which is pathetic, fenrir's final BP is just about the same as the 70 ones. You just get it 5 levels sooner.
Various Wannabe's:
I'm talking axe kick, double slap, double punch, ice 2 and ice 4, ect ect. These hardly do much damage, at most 500 if you are lucky, more likely then not 100-200 damage (if even). Level 2 and 4 spells sound like god, but in truth suck and you will feel that a lot when you are standing next to a blm. Mostly for that "Give me something to do with my massive mp" case, and does nice damage (about 500 mostly for level 4 spells, again not too bad considering you are a smn) when MBed. The rest seem to be more SC starter/enders (ooo, but what were they before that patch? Hmm...),
All other Blood Pacts are considered support. Now, I'm going to lean heavily on my on experience so please excuse me. In any pt I would call even decent, I would only be able to cast about 2 buffs if I, being a good smn, wanted it up most of the time. This is because by the time one wore out my BP timer was up, and when it was up again the other buff wears, creating a endless circle. Again, these depend on what you use.
Most common and useful buffs a smn has:
Fenrir's Evasion and Accu up.
Fenrir's all stat up
Hastega from Garuda.
Stoneskinga/blinkga: might be nice for a ninja, to help out (stoneskin that is), but besides that it only buys the tank if a pld maybe 4 seconds of no damage, not worth the BP time/mp 90% of the time. Also, must melee can take a few hits so they don't need it, if the pld or ninja loses hate a lot you've got a problem anyways.
All other BP are mostly useless or trival in comparison. Yes I hear people preaching about enthunder and such, and maybe early on it is better then nothing, but if you think something like thunderspark (really only good for it's para effect in pt's) or ice spikes is better then those three up there, get your head checked. Fenrir's tho abilities I have listed run out so that you ended up always casting both or lose one. That is to say my BP is up when Stat + wears and by the time my BP is up again Accu and evasion up wears, and so it repeats. While all these are nice, and yes that is ALL A SMN CAN DO SETTING ASIDE SUB JOBS, you can to be crazy to waste a whole spot on your pt with something like that. I regret back when I was crazy like so that I didn't thank my pt's (when I got one and when it was good) on forming such a nice pt with only 5 and 1/2 people. Really, it's like asking a rdm to join, but NOT to refresh or dispel, only enfeeble, like telling a whm to join but NOT heal, only haste, enfeeble a bit, toss a regen here and there with some protects, and start spaming dia, banish 2, and holy. And don't tell me it isn't. I'm sure I'd invite a person just so I can have enthunder, or so I can have blink every min. Stuff I can very well do without, maybe get another blm and call things 10 times faster. Oh sure, that accu up and stat bonus is nice, despite you might only really use dex and str if you are a DD, maybe vit or agi if you are a ninja or tank, but if your other stats are already low (like a pld's str) bonus's in other stats won't do much good. A bard can probably match the evasion bonus, still refresh and dispel, and boost attack. I'm not sure how far those stat boosts go but I'm sure a bard can top it or match it, and without waiting a min too. Subbing anything but whm for a smn, is of course, completly stupid.
Rdm,blm,brd might have some nice things but none of them will help you enough. Like a pld who has nice def and vit, all those def + abilities, he can't put it too use without the proper sub, war. You have a massive storage of mp, now that we know in pt your avatars are only sub par towards a pt's contrubtion, lets pick out a sub job:
Rdm: While pretty close to whm, you still missing out on ga spells, a lot of the status curing spells, more mp, divine see, ect ect..
Blm: Unlike whm, you will only end up with first level ga spells, and maybe a few level 2 spells. Now now, I'm sure you will be able to do SOME damage to the enemy, but to consider yourself a match or a replacment for blm is a really funny joke. A rdm could probably do more damage, I'd rather get a rdm nuke then a smn, and this as a main really weakens what you can be doing, and are still pretty useless to a pt. However, for soloing I might add this is a pretty fun subjob, mostly because weak enemys are weak to anything, hell I can even club them with my staff for nice damage.
Brd: I'm sure the few songs you will be able to cast will help in your sub suportive role, and this is the only main/subjob other then whm with smn I can see might work out. At the very least, if you don't have a bard in the pt, you can be somewhat useful. The songs you can use are limited however, and the best songs are too high for you to sub.
Whm: B-I-N-G-O. Yes. Finally, you are on the right track. I'm not saying whm makes smn god, but it makes them much much much more useful. "Oh there goes sanjo,retarted and bias" Well, once again please prove me wrong. Until then I will continue.
Curing knows no levels, as I love to say. Even without mp gear, unlike int and blm, you will still hit the healing cap very easily. As far as curing goes, you will only miss out on cure 4, which is 90% of the time an emergency cure, and cure 5 which only whm have and of which I have not seen used in combat, only afterwards. Even in emergencies whm chose rather to use cure 4 to get the hurt team mate out of red, and then normal cure 3's to bring them back up. As smn don't be saddened you don't have cure 4, as 90% of the time you will have a rdm or bard. (if not start crying because your pt is already more or less doomed, and if not you are already in a godly pt, too godly to be affected by no refresh much) They will provide that cure 4 as needed, as thats why most bards sub whm anyways, to help in their support role and why rdm can cure. Well, what else do you lose? Higher level protects to be sure, which is bad but your protectra too is better then nothing, trust me. Also, most pld can buff themselves, and if not (like a nin tank) a rdm can fill in if you have it.. Honestly anyways more of the advanced players (mostly jpn) and me myself only cast protect on puller and tank unless there is a special case. Most whm caste the -ga probably because they see the singles as useless and just buy the -ga to save some cash. What else do you lose? Well a very few of the higher level status cures (Stona glares mostly in my mind). Just remember that if a whm ever calls you up on that laugh in their snobby little face, as you can cure any status effect that you lack the whm levels due to sub in (like stona) with Spring Water, and cure at the same time to boot. Not as quick, the time limit on BP also kicks in, and at times the mp cost, but you still can. I've easily taken care of petrification in Den of Rancor after being told many times that I frankly suck in that regard and won't be able to keep up with the unstoning. Gregor never had a complaint, and neither did anyone in the group as they saw I could easily handle it. (Gregor was a godly pld also, even when the liz in those rare times did petri right after I cured it, he kept hate while petrified. ^^) Besides that.. I belive you don't have the tele, which is too bad we don't want to be unbalanced and godly here, it's not a rocket science to pick up a whm for a tele for your pt, and higher level raises. Well, the raise thing is unfortunate, and that's just too bad. The simplest reply would be not to die, heh. Yes, I do know mistakes do happen, but for what it's worth, being able to do anything but raise one has little to do with being a healer, not even rdm can do higher then raise 1. Also Reraise same along those lines.
Now, those things that smn can't get from subbing whm is a GOOD thing, we don't want them to be exact clones, would be no point. Like rdm and bard are basically the same class, each has a few differences that make them completly different. A whm's extra abilities, like being able to silence, haste, are as I said what I call perks. Supplements to a job's main abilitiy. Cure 3 worked completly fine all the way to 70, and I really really doubt that would change 70-75. I've often hated how invites where so low (comparing this to samurai and OMG, rdm. I get invites without lfg or search message this is new to me.heh), and then 90% of those invites were because I could heal and heal damn well.
A Smn has high mp, and auto regen, plus clear mind, and an ungimped one because it's a smn abilitiy not one gotten off a subjob. Cure 3 heals just as much as a whm. Now, with my higher mp and mp recovery with comparable equipment, I can be just as good, and yes, even better then a whm at curing in raw cure power. Sure they can cure more at once then I, but that is a price smn have to deal with. After all, nothing beats whipping out Healing Ruby II (basically a cure 3 or 4 I believe) without getting even a sliver of hate. Whm can't brag about that,heh. Curaga 1 and curaga 2 (Healing Whisper and Spring Water) are the same way. Now, we know now smn are very good at healing. And they are. They can easily take over most of a whm's main roles, and do it very well, which is what counts. Now, of course, as most of you blankly repeat over and over, smn are smn, not whm. That means they do things their way, that's were smn's PERKS come in, that is your Blood Pacts and such to add to your usefullness to the pt other then healing. When I see a smn summon, send shiva to attack, and makes me end up wasting a lot of mp healing most of the group to keep them from dying, at the same time having the mages (smn included -_-) whining about refresh, and the melee asking me to please enfeeble and dispel, I get very very pissed off. The smn is either full mp because thank god we are godly, the mob dies fast, yet a ton of people are yellow or lower and I'm already out of mp, or he has no mp and I have no mp becaue he burned it all with BP that are not making this any easier and is def. not healing. WORSE, when I remind him he is main healer, and he whines "Well what about you, you are a rdm get healing, by the way toss me a refresh plz." and I just want to yell at him and rip his throat out... I have a task to do, and I'm a support job over all, he has way more mp then I, can heal it faster and easier, and really has nothing else to do because what he IS doing with his avatars is not only useless in the greater veiw, but pathetic too. This is when I realize how much of an ass I must of been, how usless I was, when I did the very same so long ago. I still regret I can not appologize to all those pt's for not realizing i am a healer that much sooner. Now of course if it's like a ninja tank, when even I at times find myself with plenty of mp and nothing to do, times when I melee to skill up and add the few damage I can for what it's worth, and the smn melee's with avatar and buffs and crap that is all fine as healing is hardly needed, mostly then not with a ninja.
And of course, when I get a smn who casts protectga 2, and I shortly after cast protect 3 on the tank and puller, and they ask if I could refresh them first (after me of course) and heal at the start of battles. When they rush up to do hastega or maybe later on accu and evasion up, then come back and start curing the pld. Maybe work something out with me so I cure everytime they go up to buff and keep them refreshed, so they make the most of their BP WHILE healing, I see a very godly class, one I am proud to have in my pt, and one I would take over a whm. Whm seem to becoming fucks anyways. Domi for example. Think becaue he is whm he is god. Frikin goes the wrong way the fucking idiot in gustav, tells us to stop moving though we've been waiting at the same place for a few min, and then warps himself out afte disbanding. I'd really love to take smn over whm, but saddly most smn don't "do the main heal thing" That's too bad. It really is.
Anyways, please, by all means. If you have some good logic , I'm all ears.
), I would probably invite a BLM instead of a SMN to be a damage dealer. But what are the chances of a BLM -and- a SMN of the same level being lfg at the same time? Very slim. And if I want a mage that can be a backup healer if something bad happens (WHM runs out of MP, we get a link, WHM DCs, etc), and the only person lfg that can fill that role is a SMN, I'm gonna ask him/her to join. You can't always have a "perfect" party. You either work with what's available, or you go home, as I'm sure a few of those other party members you've got would rather try to get a party that is going to fight, than sit around while you wait for the "perfect" job to show up.
