An eye for an eye makes everyone blind? Give me a fucking break

I believe everyone deserves a second chance. Not infinite chances. However, in no case do humans have the mental capacity to determine that someone deserves to die. No human has the right to decide the life of another. No human has the right to torture another. If a criminal has repeated his crimes multiple times, then simply keep him in prison and away from society so he can no longer do any more damage. Hurting or killing him doesn't make the things he did go away. Two wrongs don't make a right. It seems adults forget all about the things they were taught as children because they think it no longer applies to them.
 
Eh.. I dunno.. a prison only further's a human into being a criminal really.. 3 out of every 4 humans put in jail are put back in. Do you really think prison works at all? I mean.. one could argue that a prison is more cruel than killing a person. We are social beings, generally. To take someone out of society, to isolate them, is generally the worst punishment one can be given. Though, not all are like that.. some are.. abnormalities to that and don't enjoy social interaction or whatnot. And who's to say we don't have the right to decide who lives and dies as a people? We create society by which we follow the rules to live and conduct ourselves. Everyone has a part in that. Now, this really gets more into society, who it's more beneficial for really, is a person's personality and whatnot created by society or do we have a real freedom of choice and such. Personally, I believe we really do have a choice and it might be a part society's fault that people turn bad.. but in the end there has to be genetic reasons a person is more resilient to becoming a bad person. I could give an example of two friends of mine. Both who had horrible upbringings and whatnot... one became a rather deviant person and very.. ya (I don't really talk to that person at all anymore) and the other is such a nice, hard working, strong and moral person who you'd prolly be surprised to have such an upbringing if you met him and got to know his personality first before learning his past. Soooo there must be genetics to it to a point.

Anyways, basically, I really don't think prisons work at all.. and just putting them away is really a waste. At best a prison creates a job market for people looking for work but even having humans work there generally makes them more.. violent and such. There was this one study at Yale or Harvard I believe where they set up a mock prison and had several volunteers that were checked out and mentally stable and whatnot. Some were assigned as guards, others as prisoners. All became either increasingly more aggressive or they just broke down and kinda curled into a ball kinda thing. The experiment had to be cut short because it was so.. dramatic and it hasn't been repeated (at least in the US) because of the whole humane thing.
 
Bustaballs said:
I believe everyone deserves a second chance. Not infinite chances. However, in no case do humans have the mental capacity to determine that someone deserves to die. No human has the right to decide the life of another. No human has the right to torture another. If a criminal has repeated his crimes multiple times, then simply keep him in prison and away from society so he can no longer do any more damage. Hurting or killing him doesn't make the things he did go away. Two wrongs don't make a right. It seems adults forget all about the things they were taught as children because they think it no longer applies to them.
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Too bad such a way of thinking cost more taxes which conflicts with the way you vote.
 
Darkdante said:
Too bad such a way of thinking cost more taxes which conflicts with the way you vote.
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The death penalty costs more than life sentence which goes hand-in-hand with the way I vote. =P
 
The death sentence only costs more because of the way they do it and trying to be "humane" :P that's why you can do it ways that aren't so humane (as I think they don't deserve) and would be cheaper.
 
Cool site. Probably biased, but fairly interesting information:

Facts
There are many reasons the death penalty should be abolished. It is a complex issue and it is difficult to point to any single fact or argument as the most important. Below are a number of extremely valid reasons that the state of California should stop the practice of capital punishment.

Executions are carried out at staggering cost to taxpayers.
It costs far more to execute a person than to keep him or her in prison for life. A recent New Jersey Policy Perspectives report concluded that the state's death penalty has cost taxpayers $253 million since 1983, a figure that is over and above the costs that would have been incurred had the state utilized a sentence of life without parole instead of death. "From a strictly financial perspective, it is hard to reach a conclusion other than this: New Jersey taxpayers over the last 23 years have paid more than a quarter billion dollars on a capital punishment system that has executed no one," the report concluded. Michael Murphy, former Morris County, NJ prosecutor, remarked: "If you were to ask me how $11 million a year could best protect the people of New Jersey, I would tell you by giving the law enforcement community more resources. I'm not interested in hypotheticals or abstractions, I want the tools for law enforcement to do their job, and $11 million can buy a lot of tools."


Capital punishment does not deter crime.
Scientific studies have consistently failed to demonstrate that executions deter people from committing crime anymore than long prison sentences. Moreover, states without the death penalty have much lower murder rates. The South accounts for 80% of US executions and has the highest regional murder rate.


The USA is unable to prevent accidental execution of innocent people.
The wrongful execution of an innocent person is an injustice that can never be rectified. Since the reinstatement of the death penalty, 123 men and women have been released from Death Row nationally....some only minutes away from execution. Moreover, in the past two years evidence has come to light which indicates that four men may have been wrongfully EXECEUTED in recent years for crimes they did not commit. This error rate is simply appalling, and completely unacceptable, when we are talking about life and death.


Race plays a role in determining who lives and who dies.
Race is an important factor in determining who is sentenced to die. In 1990 a report from the General Accounting Office concluded that "in 82 percent of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e. those who murdered whites were more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."


The death penalty is applied at random.
Politics, quality of legal counsel and the jurisdiction where a crime is committed are more often the determining factors in a death penalty case than the facts of the crime itself. The death penalty is a lethal lottery: of the 22,000 homicides committed every year aproximately 150 people are sentenced to death.


Capital punishment goes against almost every religion.
Although isolated passages of religious scripture have been quoted in support of the death penalty, almost all religious groups in the United States regard executions as immoral.


The USA is keeping company with notorious human rights abusers.
The vast majority of countries in Western Europe, North America and South America — more than 128 nations worldwide — have abandoned capital punishment in law or in practice. The United States remains in the same company as Iraq, Iran and China as one of the major advocates and users of capital punishment.


Millions could be diverted to helping the families of murder victims.
Many family members who have lost love ones to murder feel that the death penalty will not heal their wounds nor will it end their pain; the extended process prior to executions can prolong the agony experienced by the family. Funds now being used for the costly process of executions could be used to help families put their lives back together through counseling, restitution, crime victim hotlines, and other services addressing their needs.


Bad Lawyers are a Persistent Problem
Perhaps the most important factor in determining whether a defendant will receive the death penalty is the quality of the representation he or she is provided. Almost all defendants in capital cases cannot afford their own attorneys. In many cases, the appointed attorneys are overworked, underpaid, or lacking the trial experience required for death penalty cases. There have even been instances in which lawyers appointed to a death case were so inexperienced that they were completely unprepared for the sentencing phase of the trial. Other appointed attorneys have slept through parts of the trial, or arrived at the court under the influence of alcohol.


Life Without Parole is a Sensible Alternative to the Death Penalty
California judges have the option of sentencing convicted capital murderers to life in prison without the possibility of parole. There are currently over 3,300 people in California who have received this alternative sentence which includes a limited appeals process. The sentence is cheaper to tax-payers and keeps violent offenders off the streets for good. According to the Governor's Office, only seven people sentenced to life without parole has been released since the state provided for this option in 1977, and this occurred because they were able to prove their innocence. Unlike the death penalty, a sentence of Life Without Parole allows mistakes to be corrected.
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http://www.deathpenalty.org/index.php?pid=facts&menu=1"
 
Elemmire said:
The death sentence only costs more because of the way they do it and trying to be "humane" :P that's why you can do it ways that aren't so humane (as I think they don't deserve) and would be cheaper.
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I think he's referring to the cost of a human life, not an actual monetary cost.

I don't really enjoy the idea of having every horrible criminal live their lives in relative comfort(3 meals, shelter, etc) on the dime of all of the law-abiding citizens. Hell, criminals live a lot better than the homeless. But then, that's a double-standard that most people against the death penalty just like to ignore; it's not ok to kill them, but we should still treat them better than those who don't break the law.

I still don't buy that killing someone really costs more than keeping them fed, clothed and warm for a year. I'd like to see some of the figures of the costs; because there's no fucking way that the "cost of capital punishment" comes from actually killing them.
 
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I have no care if capital punishment deters crime :P it sure as hell will get them outta society and that's all that matters really.

However, there really is no way to determine if it doesn't deter a person. Perhaps there have been cases where someone was seriously considering doing something horrible but then they thought about the death penalty and so that deterred them from doing it. To say "it doesn't deter anyone from crime" is a foolish way. Hell.. the fact there is any punishment at all is really what deters many these days, I'd argue. Since our society continuously seems to be declining and refusing to take responsibility for their own actions.. it's always society's fault.. it was the upbringing, it was the situation, etc.. explanation becoming excuse.. it really is a downward spiral for society... but because there is punishment truly out there, surely it deters some. And even if it deters only ONE person from doing something so horrible as rape or murder.. that makes it all the more justified. Because when someone is raped or murdered.. there is more than one victim really. The Victim is of course the most effected.. but their friends, family, working mates.. etc.. they all are effected too. So that more than justifies it.
 
Bustaballs said:
The death penalty costs more than life sentence which goes hand-in-hand with the way I vote. =P
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Your right.

But from what I"m reading. If you believe someone deserves a second chance, you shouldn't wan't life without parole. Its swift and rarely appealed. The justice system spends alot more time and money trying to make sure a person is innocent because of the death penalty and the appeals process.

People with life sentences without parole cost cheaper because they are bascially forgotten. This is why it's cheaper, more innocent people end up in jail.

Me I like the death penalty not because people die. But because of human nature and it's need for punishment and reward. In my opinon life in prison is not really punishment for alot of these people. It's worth the cost, especially to get the innocent out of jail, because that is what your really paying for in the death penalty.
 
I know I'm sure as hell deterred from doing certain things, because I'll have to pay a fine; imagine how deterred I'd be from doing them if I'd fucking die for doing it.

Fear of death does deter crime though. Florida passed a concealed license law and gun crime went down every year because criminals were deterred from using guns because they might get shot by someone with a concealed handgun. You can't say that capital punishment has no bearing on the crime rate; there are a shitload of other factors that could lead to an increase in crimes. Rising rich/poor gap, growth of gangs, increase in drug trade, increased accessibility to guns/bombs(internet anyone), hell, even just increased population would be a factor; saying that it has no bearing while completely ignoring the hundred factors that actually increase the crime rate is completely stupid.
 
Well, from a completely logical perspective, I'm against it simply for the failure rate. I'd rather 10 people be imprisoned over the death penalty if it prevents one innocent man from being wrongly executed. Men are far from perfect and you have to think in relation to that.
 
Actually.. interesting fact as well.. I think it was 2/3 of those in prison are actually drug users.. which is interesting considering it's a victimless crime. I mean, I know I've talked to Bajaratt before that, and sure some drugs are really gonna fuck you up but I still think in the privacy of your own home it shouldn't be a big deal.. now, just like with beer and such, if you're outside and intoxicated, you become a risk to the public and so arrested. It's kinda a hard debate. Some of those drugs really are powerful and so you might be wandering out or hurting yourself and not even have any way to stop it but ya.. hmm

Prison really doesn't work.. thinking it does is naive.

And yes, there is that problem too.. the innocent being put in jail, though I truly wonder how true that is. Our way of determining how innocent a person really is (especially with the whole "Big Brother" kinda dealy) is becoming better and better.. I'm fairly sure most claiming innocent to their grave really aren't innocent. But who knows for sure :\
 
Darkdante said:
People with life sentences without parole cost cheaper because they are bascially forgotten. This is why it's cheaper, more innocent people end up in jail.
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That's why the death penalty "costs more"?

Busta(and those who say death penalty is more expensive), you're throwing in a ton of shit that has nothing to do with the cost of the actual penalty, and all of that time and effort to make sure that you have the correct person; and then you tack on a bill at the end and say that's the actual cost? Yeah, it would be a lot cheaper to just convict and stop giving a shit, great idea for justice. :thumbsup:
 
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Bustaballs said:
Well, from a completely logical perspective, I'm against it simply for the failure rate. I'd rather 10 people be imprisoned over the death penalty if it prevents one innocent man from being wrongly executed. Men are far from perfect and you have to think in relation to that.
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So it's ok to lock the innocent people up for life, just as long as you don't kill them?
 
Bajaratt said:
That's why the death penalty "costs more"? You're throwing in a ton of shit that has nothing to do with the cost of the actual penalty, and all of that time and effort to make sure that you have the correct person; and then you tack on a bill at the end and say that's the actual cost? Yeah, it would be a lotcheaper to just convict and stop giving a shit, great idea for justice. :thumbsup:
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i think you got me confused with Bustaballs.
 
Darkdante said:
i think you got me confused with Bustaballs.
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Yeah, re-reading that, the person I'm directing it to is unclear. I quoted you because you said WHY the price was so ridiculously inflated; but the rest was targeted to the people(busta in this case) who say that the price of capital punishment is actually higher than life in prison.

I'll edit that.
 
Bajaratt said:
So it's ok to lock the innocent people up for life, just as long as you don't kill them?
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No, but would you rather be accidentally imprisoned for a few years or be executed? Neither is okay, but one is better than the other. If you're just imprisoned, you have the ability to continue to try and prove your innocence.
 
I r sad :(

Bring back firing squads.

I remember watching this video of an execution in Chechnya.

These two men raped a 17-18 year old girl. The two men were caught and maybe given a trial although the evidence was strong against them.

They where taken out in the street. The military handed AK-47's to the father and brothers of the girl and gave them a clip. They loaded and aimed at the rapists. A whistle was blown and they fire all 30 rounds at the rapists.

Nothing like cold blooded revenge.

The death penalty is only expensive because we try to do it "humanely" so we don't get shit from the activists.:rtfm:

Another thing, the death penalty doesn't always have to be used, you can decide to go for the death penalty when the evidence against the offender is way to strong for them to even remotely stand a chance to defend against it. Sorry if I'm contradicting myself in anyway.
 
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Pastry said:
Bring back firing squads.

I remember watching this video of an execution in Chechnya.

These two men raped a 17-18 year old girl. The two men were caught and maybe given a trial although the evidence was strong against them.

They where taken out in the street. The military handed AK-47's to the father and brothers of the girl and gave them a clip. They loaded and aimed at the rapists. A whistle was blown and they fire all 30 rounds at the rapists.

Nothing like cold blooded revenge.

The death penalty is only expensive because we try to do it "humanely" so we don't get shit from the activists.:rtfm:

Another thing, the death penalty doesn't always have to be used, you can decide to go for the death penalty when the evidence against the offender is way to strong for them to even remotely stand a chance to defend against it. Sorry if I'm contradicting myself in anyway.
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Two boys that made the biggest mistake of their life and could have just served prison time while getting theory and eventually learn from their mistake and become good, productive members of society. Instead, they were MURDERED, which I find to be far more wrong than rape, by someone, when it didn't change anything. It isn't justice when nothing productive comes from the end result.
 
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