An eye for an eye makes everyone blind? Give me a fucking break

[Darkdante]

No, but would you rather be accidentally imprisoned for a few years or be executed? Neither is okay, but one is better than the other. If you're just imprisoned, you have the ability to continue to try and prove your innocence.

You'll never be able to prove your innocence by yourself. Well maybe never but, if the appeals process were as intensive as say in a death row trial. Well then chances are alot better that the innocent would not get into jail, or spend much time there.

Without that extensive appeals process it's pretty much certain that you'll spend the rest of your innocent life in jail.

But with the extensive appeals process, life in jail will be just as expensive as killing a person.

So your pretty much left with being left to rot in prison innocent, or risking the death penalty with a chance to be exonorated.

I'd want a chance to be exonorated, and would want the State to spend every effort to get me out of there, since they are the ones that put me there.

 

[Uzor]

The death sentence only costs more because of the way they do it and trying to be "humane" that's why you can do it ways that aren't so humane (as I think they don't deserve) and would be cheaper.

The thing is, it really isn't humane. They say it is, however, the death punishment they use the most is poisonous injection or w/e you call it. That was developed by one of Hitler's doctors as a way of killing Jews during the second world war. First you inject something that will cause the victim to doze off and not feel anything, then you inject them with a poison that kills them off.

However, in some cases the first shot doesn't work as intended, and the victim is in their full senses. When later injected with the second shot, they'll feel great pain, and their lungs will be paralyzed, causing them to be unable to breath, and basically slowly suffocating to death in great pain.

The second one, the electric chain, isn't humane either. In some cases, the victim survives several of the shockings. Studying the clothes of the victims, you'll see that in some cases, their faces have melted and dripped down on their clothes. I do believe they haven't used the electric chair for a long time, though.

I think he's referring to the cost of a human life, not an actual monetary cost.

I don't really enjoy the idea of having every horrible criminal live their lives in relative comfort(3 meals, shelter, etc) on the dime of all of the law-abiding citizens. Hell, criminals live a lot better than the homeless. But then, that's a double-standard that most people against the death penalty just like to ignore; it's not ok to kill them, but we should still treat them better than those who don't break the law.

I still don't buy that killing someone really costs more than keeping them fed, clothed and warm for a year. I'd like to see some of the figures of the costs; because there's no fucking way that the "cost of capital punishment" comes from actually killing them.

I agree with that, and I've talked about it before. It sucks. In Sweden, inmates also have better food then school children. They basically live in a luxury hotel. That's why I mentioned that they shouldn't have television, their food should be cheap, etc.

The sick thing is that the Swedish government basically use the argument "The criminals can't help themselves, its not their fault they're in prison!". huh?!

Prison really doesn't work.. thinking it does is naive.

Reason it doesn't work is because of the way prison works, not the prison itself. As an example, Sweden's hotels is basically a luxury hotel. They have a room of their own, sometimes they share with others, but if they want a room of their own, they can get it. If they feel threatened by other inmates, they can get their own guard etc. and doesn't even have to interact with the other inmates. They get great food, their own television etc.

The result is that people from other countries, mainly Finland, go to Sweden, and commit a crime in order to get thrown in to jail get free housing. Some homeless people also do it during the winter in order to get free housing.

 

[Bajaratt]

Bring back firing squads.

Actually some states still have firing squads and hanging as options for capital punishment.

 

[Pesmerga]

Actually some states still have firing squads and hanging as options for capital punishment.

i like this...nothing strikes fear into the heart of criminals like a good hanging!

 

[Elemmire]

Two boys that made the biggest mistake of their life and could have just served prison time while getting theory and eventually learn from their mistake and become good, productive members of society. Instead, they were MURDERED, which I find to be far more wrong than rape, by someone, when it didn't change anything. It isn't justice when nothing productive comes from the end result.

ya.. PRISON DOES NOT WORK. All prison does is teach a person how to be more like a criminal. It's far more likely they'll be right back in prison. Maybe not for the same crime but they will be back. You have this insane belief that prison works and that it always changes people for the better.. IT DOES NOT. Why don't people realize that prison is a failure.

Reason it doesn't work is because of the way prison works, not the prison itself. As an example, Sweden's hotels is basically a luxury hotel. They have a room of their own, sometimes they share with others, but if they want a room of their own, they can get it. If they feel threatened by other inmates, they can get their own guard etc. and doesn't even have to interact with the other inmates. They get great food, their own television etc.

Wow.. that sounds retarded for a prison and criminals... why spoil prisoners? rewarding bad behavior (as it sounds like) will only result in bad behavior. The problem with our prisons (and most) is that they have been socially defined as a criminal. It's the whole social interactive paradigm. "We are (whatever) because we have been labeled or defined by others as such". That is.. the Thomas Theorem kinda thing - situations defined as real become real in their consequences, reality when defined by an authority or your peers becomes real. I mean.. the truth is prisoners shouldn't be treated great like you seem to have in Sweden...but ya :| unless I miss understood your post. Prisons really don't work... I mean.. it'd prolly have been better if all prisons really had completely isolated prisoners from each other but, I dunno.

 

[Bajaratt]

The thing is, it really isn't humane. They say it is, however, the death punishment they use the most is poisonous injection or w/e you call it. That was developed by one of Hitler's doctors as a way of killing Jews during the second world war. First you inject something that will cause the victim to doze off and not feel anything, then you inject them with a poison that kills them off.

However, in some cases the first shot doesn't work as intended, and the victim is in their full senses. When later injected with the second shot, they'll feel great pain, and their lungs will be paralyzed, causing them to be unable to breath, and basically slowly suffocating to death in great pain.

The second one, the electric chain, isn't humane either. In some cases, the victim survives several of the shockings. Studying the clothes of the victims, you'll see that in some cases, their faces have melted and dripped down on their clothes. I do believe they haven't used the electric chair for a long time, though.

Actually, that's not what they do. They basically overdose you on muscle relaxants; it puts you to sleep, then relaxes you so much that your heart stops beating. You're being given a shitload of pain killers, they're not going to be in pain.

Even if they did do the sleep + poison method; you'd have to be asleep or dead yourself to not know someone is awake. Hell, they'd use more anesthetic than they really need for the injection, not like they have to worry about making sure you can wake up.

Electric chair is horribly inefficient. It'd be a lot easier/cheaper/more effective to just use a defibrillator.

 

[Fellina]

I think the methods of rehabilitation for criminals in the country needs to be improved. I also feel, however, that if a criminal goes through extensive rehabilitation, that rehab fails, and he repeats his violent crimes, then he should be executed. It's not a matter of revenge, or justice. It's simply acting for the protection of society. If a person is so sick that they simply can't help raping and killing children no matter what therapy you give them, then it's in society's best interests to remove them permanently, and humanely.

 

[Elemmire]

I don't see why you should bother being humane about it.. or even wait so long with some things. Everyone makes choices.. even if they really have an actual defect, from a genetic standpoint as I have been taking, it would seem better to eliminate them from the gene pool as is. I am not so.. hmm.. I don't believe in the "sick" and "Treated" and that kinda thing.. I believe in the "Bad" and that they need to be punished.. pain is a great way for someone to grow, really. And the fear that others would have from trying to avoid the pain themselves would keep some (even if it's just one, I still say it's more than enough reason) from doing it themselves. I'm not a fool though, there's no way to ever eliminate such horrible things completely. But I see humanity as a childish race that's still too immature to really be treated so lightly in matters. That the race should be treated like a child. Strict punishments for breaking the law.

 

[Darkdante]

Dr. Kervorkians machine was cheap, painless. If you use it for people in pain.........

 

[Bustaballs]

ya.. PRISON DOES NOT WORK. All prison does is teach a person how to be more like a criminal. It's far more likely they'll be right back in prison. Maybe not for the same crime but they will be back. You have this insane belief that prison works and that it always changes people for the better.. IT DOES NOT. Why don't people realize that prison is a failure.

I typoed therapy and Firefox didn't correct it properly. Prison is considered to be a criminal's "debt to society". It's not necessarily meant as a form of behavioral rehabilitation. Besides, thinking that someone who commits a crime will always continue to do so is retarded. Prison takes you away from your family and friends and entire life. Once you understand how precious those things are, you might be willing to live your life properly.

Also, a huge amount of people in prison aren't real criminals. Imagine how many drug addicts are in prison. Imagine how many young people went to prison for dating someone a few years younger than them and their partner happens to be underage. There are so many examples like that. If we could stop wasting tax dollars on throwing non criminals in prison, then maybe life in prison for the real criminals wouldn't sound so bad.

 

[Elemmire]

Also, a huge amount of people in prison aren't real criminals. Imagine how many drug addicts are in prison. Imagine how many young people went to prison for dating someone a few years younger than them and their partner happens to be underage. There are so many examples like that. If we could stop wasting tax dollars on throwing non criminals in prison, then maybe life in prison for the real criminals wouldn't sound so bad.

I said that before that there are like.. 2/3 in prison being drug users such. People who did victimless crimes. Honestly, I don't have a problem with legalizing every drug so long as it's illegal to be in public while intoxicated (as it is usually for being drunk these days) and whatnot.. hehe..

 

[Mishaela]

I disagree with torture for the same reason I disagree with the death penalty - someone hasto be the inflicter, and for them to be allowed to get away with it just because the inflicted was guilty of some horrible crime is an enormous load of crap.

Regarding the "humane" part of lethal injection...it's not uncommon that many aren't given enough Sodium Thiopenthal, which is the part that puts the person into a sleep. When they don't get enough, they may wake up after the Pancuronium bromide is injected, leaving them fully aware of their going-ons but entirely unable to move. When the Potassium chloride is injected afterwards, they get the joy of feeling their body shut down on themselves, and they'll feel every slow, horrible moment of it and not be able to do a thing about it.

So...humane? Can be, but when it isn't, it's one of the most slow, horrible deaths out there.

 

[Uzor]

Actually, that's not what they do. They basically overdose you on muscle relaxants; it puts you to sleep, then relaxes you so much that your heart stops beating. You're being given a shitload of pain killers, they're not going to be in pain.

Even if they did do the sleep + poison method; you'd have to be asleep or dead yourself to not know someone is awake. Hell, they'd use more anesthetic than they really need for the injection, not like they have to worry about making sure you can wake up.

Electric chair is horribly inefficient. It'd be a lot easier/cheaper/more effective to just use a defibrillator.

Where have you been? Unless they changed it recently, and now I'll quote from wikipedia:

After the condemned is fastened on the execution table, two intravenous cannulae ("drips") are inserted, one in each arm. Only one is used for the execution; the other is reserved as a backup in case the primary line fails.
The arm of the subject is swabbed with alcohol before the cannula is inserted.[8] The needles and equipment used are also sterilized. One reason for this is that cannulae are standard medical products that are sterilized during manufacture. Secondly, there is a chance that the prisoner could receive a stay of execution after the cannulae have been inserted, as happened in the case of James Autry in October 1983 (he was executed eventually on March 14, 1984). Finally, it would also be a hazard for those handling unsterile equipment.
The intravenous injection is usually a sequence of compounds, designed to induce rapid unconsciousness followed by death through paralysis of respiratory muscles and/or by inducing cardiac arrest through depolarization of cardiac muscle cells. The execution of the condemned in most states involves three separate injections:

1. Sodium thiopental: to render the offender unconscious.
2. Pancuronium/Tubocurarine: to stop all muscle movement except the heart. This causes muscle paralysis, collapse of the diaphragm, and would eventually cause death by asphyxiation.
3. Potassium chloride: to stop the heart from beating, and thus cause death: see cardiac arrest.

The drugs are not mixed externally as that can cause them to precipitate.
The intravenous tubing leads to a room next to the execution chamber, usually separated from the subject by a curtain or wall. Typically a technician trained in venipuncture inserts the cannulae, while a second technician, who is usually a member of the prison staff, orders, prepares, and loads the drugs into an infusion pump. After the curtain is opened to allow the witnesses to see inside the chamber, the condemned person will then be permitted to make a final statement. Following this, the warden will signal for the execution to commence, and the executioner(s) (either prison staff or private citizens depending on the jurisdiction) will then activate the infusion pump which mechanically delivers the three drugs in sequence. During the execution, the subject's cardiac rhythm is monitored. Death is pronounced after cardiac activity stops. Death usually occurs within seven minutes, although the whole procedure can take up to 2 hours, as was the case with the execution of Christopher Newton on May 24, 2007. According to state law, if participation in the execution is prohibited for physicians, the death ruling is made by the state's Medical Examiner's Office. After confirmation that death has occurred, a coroner signs the executed individual’s death certificate.

There's many reasons people wouldn't notice. For example, they might do it on purpose, or because of the bolded part. Since people don't inject it personally (its all done automatically), they wouldn't notice.

Nowadays, they use a much higher dose of it in order to avoid that, apparently roughly 14 times more then normally, but due to the nature of the drug, that in itself doesn't kill them.

After a 5 gram dose consciousness will be regained in about 5 to 6 half-lives, which occurs in about 57-69 hours. The effects of such a high dose, however, include profound respiratory depression (depression of the brainstem respiratory center) and vascular collapse (vasodilatation and myocardial depression), which is in itself lethal.

edit: And Mishaela, you missed one step in-between, the paralytic. As soem of you may or may not know, the diaphragm is used for breathing. When it expands, you exhale. When it drags together, it causes the lungs to expand and forces air down to them. You can breathe without the diaphragm, but it is much harder, and not nearly as effective as breathing normally. However, since the paralytic stops all muscle movements except for the heart, it gets incredibly hard to even do that. Hence the suffocation.

edit2: heh, just found this gem. We're lucky this isn't how we do things nowadays. However, I can imagine we'd have close to none criminals if we took care of them this way:

Until 1814, the full punishment for the crime was to be hanged, drawn and quartered in that the convict would be:

1. Dragged on a hurdle (a wooden frame) to the place of execution. (This is one possible meaning of drawn.)
2. Hanged by the neck for a short time or until almost dead. (hanged).
3. Disembowelled and emasculated, and the genitalia and entrails burned before the condemned's eyes (This is another meaning of drawn. It is often used in cookbooks to denote the disembowelment of chicken or rabbit carcasses before cooking).[2]
4. Beheaded and the body divided into four parts (quartered).

Imagine the pain. First have your penis cut-off and burnt before your eyes, then have your intestines dragged out of you by a machine rolling them together. It'd be even funner if the roller that drags them together was almost burning hot with sharp things sticking up from it like that one movie where they go in to a madman's dreams. Oh, and don't forget to burn the liver etc. before the criminal's very eyes, and then divide the body in to 4 parts (5 including the head) and put them on public display. On a more important note, I had no idea "Evisceration" meant disembowelment.

 

[Zephayra]

Actually, that's not what they do. They basically overdose you on muscle relaxants; it puts you to sleep, then relaxes you so much that your heart stops beating. You're being given a shitload of pain killers, they're not going to be in pain.

Even if they did do the sleep + poison method; you'd have to be asleep or dead yourself to not know someone is awake. Hell, they'd use more anesthetic than they really need for the injection, not like they have to worry about making sure you can wake up.

Personally I never thought it was fair that criminals who have commited horrendously violent murders got the luxury of a quick and relatively painless 'put to sleep' kind of death when their victims suffered excruitiating and painful deaths.

 

[Elemmire]

"3 Disembowelled and emasculated, and the genitalia and entrails burned before the condemned's eyes (This is another meaning of drawn. It is often used in cookbooks to denote the disembowelment of chicken or rabbit carcasses before cooking).[2]"

yay, let's go back to that

 

[Direwolf]

There are some crimes I deem as unforgivable. Rape and murder like this involving children? If they can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt then just execute the bastards. There is a line that can be crossed, and when it is crossed there is no room for mercy or compassion. Its about cutting a poison from our society. I am generally very liberal in what I will accept from a person's personal choices but on this I take a real hard stance. Your right to life is waved when you knowingly and willingly extinguish the life of another human being in cold blood, especially children in cold blood. I personally don't hold to the belief that by executing someone you somehow damn the person/society that is meeting out this punishment. It has been shown in recent studies to prevent further crimes, which is a good thing.

One argument that really bugs me is people trying to use the poverty divisions to say death penalty is unjust. The fact that there are people who can talk or strait up lie their way out of any situation should not be a surprise to anyone. And the fact that people with money can and will pay said people very handsome salaries to lie on their behalf should not be a surprise either, its a logical connection. The most basic principle of trade, I have something you want, and you have something I want applies. Next you apply the rule of scarcity, IE limited resources, they are only so many people who can bamboozle a crowd of 12 random people (no guarantees on morality or intelligence) so thoroughly that someone like OJ Simpson can get away with murder. Now it applies to all aspects of the law. From getting out of paying taxes on up. Does it make the poor guy any less guilty of his crimes if a smaller percentage of richer people get away with it? Whats the next step, abolishing prison sentences entirely because some people can get away with it?

Again I reiterate this is applies to people who can be convicted beyond a shadow of a doubt with something like DNA evidence.

 

[Elemmire]

I really think all lawyers should be appointed by the courts. That no amount of money will get you out of anything. And that you will be held while under the arrest and there's no way you can get to any other person to pay them off to lie for you.. that kinda thing.. that or we really need something that detects lies XD the polygraph sucks.

 

[Darkdante]

Rape and murder like this involving children? If they can prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt then just execute the bastards.

Thats what Castration is for.

Cut his balls off! :shok:

 

[Anoki]

Plus I'm pretty sure Jesus said "Turn the other cheek". Even the old-school Jewish G-d from the Old Testament never said eye for an eye - that was Hammurabi.

Exodus
23If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Turn the other Cheek was in reference to nonviolence, when acted upon you. "...do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles." NOT in correlation with punishing someone who has committed a real offense. If someone's taken a life, then their life is forfeit. When making reference to the bible (Christian or any other) it would do well to know the whole context and not just a "popular phrase." It's easy to take things out of context and confuse the original meaning. I'm not meaning to flame here, just to clarify the point.

 

[exodusamphi]

We should do it like many countries do, if you steal, cut off the hand. If you kill, cut off the head. If you rape, cut off the balls. That kind of thing would be enough for me, although being from Texas I generally prefer the death penalty for 2 of the 3 offenses listed above.