Health care bill passed in house

[Halifirien]

god forbid you have an inconvenience like that to get that baby scooped out.

Yeah, "god" forbid. One of the reasons people buy insurance is to help cover the costs of medical procedures, and abortion is one service covered by a lot of private insurance. I don't know how much money you make, but $600 is a fair chunk out of my budget and I'd rather insurance handle it. I'm hardly the only one, considering the backlash against Stupak.

 

[Mattaru]

I'd be interested in you elaborating this.
What ramifications, what lack of understanding?

You need to be more specific.

Like...start with your ideal level of government. Why that is. And the warrant for your claim.

 

[Cort]

You need to be more specific.

Like...start with your ideal level of government. Why that is. And the warrant for your claim.

No examples?
I figured one as 'knowledgeable' as yourself would at least have an example.

To answer your question; Small.

A large government restricts freedoms, requires excess taxation, and so on.

A level of government that doesn't attempt to be world police, that doesn't nation-build, that doesn't ignore the states' sovereignty, that doesn't propagate a welfare state, that doesn't allow the tyranny of the majority, that doesn't forcibly take it's citizen's property.

That is my ideal level of government.

Let me throw a quote in for good measure:

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.

 

[Thelona]

No examples?
I figured one as 'knowledgeable' as yourself would at least have an example.

To answer your question; Small.

A large government restricts freedoms, requires excess taxation, and so on.

A level of government that doesn't attempt to be world police, that doesn't nation-build, that doesn't ignore the states' sovereignty, that doesn't propagate a welfare state, that doesn't allow the tyranny of the majority, that doesn't forcibly take it's citizen's property.

That is my ideal level of government.

Let me throw a quote in for good measure:

amen

when Benjamin Franklin exited the constitutional convention, he was asked by a woman. Mr Franklin, What have you given us? Mr franklin responded. A Republic mam, if you can keep it.

Obviously we couldn't.

Benjamin Franklin has been spinning in his grave for years.

 

[Linhjah]

There are a lot of opinions being thrown around as fact ITT. Let's change it up a bit. I present, for your consideration the Alan Guttmacher Institute, who is a "a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America."

The Guttmacher Institute advances sexual and reproductive health worldwide through an interrelated program of social science research, public education and policy analysis. For nearly four decades, Guttmacher has demonstrated that scientific evidence — when reliably collected and analyzed, compellingly presented and systematically disseminated — can make a difference in policies, programs and medical practice.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

July 2008
INCIDENCE OF ABORTION

• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]

• Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 69% among blacks and 54% among Hispanics are unintended.

• In 2005, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000. From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred.[2]

• Each year, about two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.[3]

http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/cost.html

Cost of Abortion

How much does a surgical abortion cost?

* In 2001, the average charge for a surgical abortion at 10 weeks’ gestation was $468; but since most abortions in the United States are performed at low-cost clinics, women on average paid $372 for the procedure. (31)

How much does a medical abortion cost? In 2001, the average charge for a medical abortion was $487. (31)

Who pays for abortions?

* Some 74% of women pay for abortions with their own money; 13% of abortions are covered by Medicaid, and 13% are billed directly to private insurance. Some women who pay for the procedure themselves may receive insurance reimbursement later. (31)

Does the U.S. government help poor women who need abortions pay for them?

* Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman’s life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy, or in cases of rape or incest. As of November 2006, 17 states used their own funds to subsidize abortion for poor women. (38) In actuality, however, about half of these states provide little to no funds to cover these services. (39)

How many states prohibit public funding of abortions?

* A total of 32 states and the District of Columbia prohibit public funding of abortions, except in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest. South Dakota only provides public funding of abortions when necessary to protect the woman’s life, which is not in compliance with the federal Medicaid statute. (38)

So it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get abortions would be impacted too much since most of them pay out of pocket already.

It amuses me that the majority of this thread is about the Stupak-Pitts portion of the bill when there is so much more to the bill.

 

[Halifirien]

So it doesn't seem like the majority of women who get abortions would be impacted too much since most of them pay out of pocket already.

The general idea is that we have a major area of women's healthcare -- "Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion," according to the study you cited -- that is being marked off-limits for insurance coverage by the amendment. How many of them are paying out of pocket because they don't have a more affordable alternative?

 

[Dejavu]

Where does the money for this come from?

lets say that about 1M abortions occur each year which as far as i can tell is about right. At about 400 dollars each that's about 400 million dollars. Now to someone on the far left that may not seem like much but that is still a lot of money. Where does this money come from? In the case of insurance it makes the premiums go up and it is for a service i would never use. Unacceptable. Now the even worse alternative. If it were covered by the government the only way to get the money is to tax it or print it either way then the price is spread over everyone.

 

[Halifirien]

In the case of insurance it makes the premiums go up and it is for a service i would never use..

Viagra is covered and women never use that. What's the difference?

 

[Thelona]

Viagra is covered and women never use that. What's the difference?

Just to claify, My problem is the idea of Taxpayer funded abortions, Private insurance companies should be allowed to cover whatever they want, that's their choice, and anyone who may have that big of a problem with abortions, choice whether or not to buy that insurance.

I would have just as big of a problem with taxpayer money paying for Viagra, thats asinine, why the hell should the government pay for medicine just so you can get a hard-on.

 

[Tristam Green]

Just to claify, My problem is the idea of Taxpayer funded abortions, Private insurance companies should be allowed to cover whatever they want, that's their choice, and anyone who may have that big of a problem with abortions, choice whether or not to buy that insurance.

I would have just as big of a problem with taxpayer money paying for Viagra, thats asinine, why the hell should the government pay for medicine just so you can get a hard-on.

Erectile Dysfunction is a condition brought about by various factors. I also have a problem with Viagra being covered by insurance, but less of a problem with that than I would with abortions being covered fully, without scrutiny.

There is only one cause for pregnancy, and it isn't "stress".

Well, maybe if you're Zeus with a splitting headache...

 

[Dejavu]

Viagra is covered and women never use that. What's the difference?

None... you must not understand me yet... the lack of a boner is not life threatening. It should not be covered either. And further down this path. Neither should fertility treatments, cosmetic surgery, tubes tied, vasectomies. Basically anything that is elective.

 

[Halifirien]

I understood your point. Mine is that we don't have great hordes of people standing up and demanding that boner meds be dropped because God will give you a hard-on if he wants you to have one. If we cover the one, we should cover the other.

It's looking increasingly unlikely that Stupak will get into the final bill.

 

[Morcheeba]

All I have to say is you guys are lucky you don't pay half the taxes we pay.

 

[Elemmire]

and what taxes do you pay? and I think there was some research showing the US citizens pay about the same amount of taxes from their pay checks/whatnot as other countries (more socialist and such) so maybe we do pay just as many taxes as you? I dunno, I'll have to find that research.

 

[Morcheeba]

Here's a small blurp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_economies

The average tax rate in Canada is much higher than in the United States. In Canada total tax and non-tax revenue for every level of government equals about 38.4% of GDP,[2] compared to the U.S. rate of 28.2%.[1]


A significant portion of this tax differential is due to spending differences between the two countries. While the US is running deficits of about 4% of GDP,[3] Canada has consistently posted a budget surplus of around 1% of GDP.[4] Considered in a revenue-neutral context, the differential is much smaller - Canada's total governmental spending was about 36% of GDP[5] vs. 31% in the US.[3] In addition, caution must be used when comparing taxes across countries, due to the different services each offers. Whereas the Canadian healthcare system is 70% government-funded, the US system is just under 50% government-funded (mostly via Medicare and Medicaid); adding the additional healthcare-spending burden to the above figures to obtain comparable numbers (+3% for Canada, +7% for the US) gives adjusted expenditures of 38–39% of GDP for each of the two nations.

I knew we paid substantially more.. but w.e. I'm used to not being believed.

 

[Thelona]

Mine is that we don't have great hordes of people standing up and demanding that boner meds be dropped because God will give you a hard-on if he wants you to have one.

where do you even get this? I'm pretty sure religion has NOTHING to do with dejavu's stance on this.

The key word here is Elective why can't you get that?

 

[Cort]

A big problem I see here; The majority of people here are totally fine with the government taking their money, forcefully, and using it to finance everything from nation building to spying on it's own citizens.

 

[Halifirien]

where do you even get this? I'm pretty sure religion has NOTHING to do with dejavu's stance on this.

The key word here is Elective why can't you get that?

As I pointed out earlier, I don't distinguish between "elective" and "medically necessary" when it comes to abortion. As far as I'm concerned, any abortion a woman wants is medically necessary because she has the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy for any reason.

(And I know religion isn't part of Dejavu's stance. However, religion is a major factor in people's feelings about abortion.)

 

[Dejavu]

where do you even get this? I'm pretty sure religion has NOTHING to do with dejavu's stance on this.

The key word here is Elective why can't you get that?

based on some of the arguments we have had in the past this made me laugh pretty hard.

Also i doubt Stupak will be in the final bill either seeing as he said himself he was positioning and would vote for the bill with or without that amendment.. after the fact.

 

[Mattaru]

No examples?
I figured one as 'knowledgeable' as yourself would at least have an example.

To answer your question; Small.

A large government restricts freedoms, requires excess taxation, and so on.

A level of government that doesn't attempt to be world police, that doesn't nation-build, that doesn't ignore the states' sovereignty, that doesn't propagate a welfare state, that doesn't allow the tyranny of the majority, that doesn't forcibly take it's citizen's property.

That is my ideal level of government.

Let me throw a quote in for good measure:

For now I'll post what I posted somewhere else:

I haven't read any responses since last night if there were any but:

I won't have time to respond/post a more clear, organized version of what I have been saying and extrapolating on the above until the week of Thanksgiving when I have a week off.

Right now I'm just too busy, I need to:

Finish up a website and get it launched
Finish a newsletter
Do all my normal shit at work
(I love working full-time for no pay!)
Finish a fellowship application
Keep applying to other shit
etc.

I had yesterday off and spent 1/3 of the day doing the above anyway, another 1/3 doing this, and another 1/3 going to a show. Sorry to let you down (excuse my presumption) for a little bit~

I'll get back to you.