morrigan's robe on quetz.

[pchan]

Because he(pchan) was saying that the Red Mage Group 1 merits increase Accuracy, and the Black Mage Group 1 increase Potency. Where as both jobs group two merits are reversed in which they increase.

Which is incorrect, since Red Mage merit spells increase in both with each rank. In a sense, he's wrong about Black Mage merit spells as well, which do give a potency bonus with each rank, but only during Magic Bursts.

Please skaw stop fucking arguing for the pleasure of it. I mean your comment about me being wrong about saying "Elemental staffs dont affect enfeebling potency" because it increases bio dmg is totally retarded and out of question (and childish). Last time i checked rdm tier 2 merit increase potency and tier 1 increase accuracy, which is what i said, and i never said tier 2 doesnt increase accuracy.

Now seriously stop it.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

The normal character stats (STR, DEX, AGI etc.) are not meant to be used to enhance attack, accuracy and evasion in that way. These stats are compared against a mobs stats for effectiveness. Example:

Your STR vs. mobs VIT. This is how you raise your max damage

Your VIT vs. mobs STR. This determines the max damage you can take from a hit.

Your MND/INT/CHR vs. mobs MND/INT/CHR respectively. The like stats are compared, the higher yours is compared to the mobs alike stat, the better chance you have of landing your MND/INT based enfeebles as well as more damage, as well as an increased charm rate when comparing CHR. This is the same when comparing to yourself.

Your DEX vs. mobs AGI. This determins Critical Hit.

Your AGI vs. mobs DEX. This determines the Critical Hit chance against you.

The additives of Attack, Evasion, Defense, Magic Attack, etc. from the main stats are just a small bonus to the 'hidden' ones

 

[Tomasello]

Because he(pchan) was saying that the Red Mage Group 1 merits increase Accuracy, and the Black Mage Group 1 increase Potency. Where as both jobs group two merits are reversed in which they increase.

Which is incorrect, since Red Mage merit spells increase in both with each rank. In a sense, he's wrong about Black Mage merit spells as well, which do give a potency bonus with each rank, but only during Magic Bursts.

It's AMAZING how everyone else on the board gets it but you Uzor.

 

[Skaw]

Please skaw stop fucking arguing for the pleasure of it. I mean your comment about me being wrong about saying "Elemental staffs dont affect enfeebling potency" because it increases bio dmg is totally retarded and out of question (and childish). Last time i checked rdm tier 2 merit increase potency and tier 1 increase accuracy, which is what i said, and i never said tier 2 doesnt increase accuracy.

Now seriously stop it.

No, you said..

Elemental staffs only affect elemental potency, not enfeebling.

..which is incorrect, as with my examples of Bio and Dia, they don't stop at Elemental potency.

As for you're second snippit,

Potency is more damage, not accuracy. Potency= blm merits, Accuracy= rdm merits. Tier 2 merit are opposite however, as BLM=accuracy and rdm=potency.

"are opposite," would mean you're saying that the RDM spells do not gain accuracy, nor do the BLM spells gain potency. Which again, is incorrect.

 

[Courtney]

Once again Int/mind accuracy is not proven and is assuption so it's not "well known" in game mechanics. Feel free to bring me tests.

The link between INT/MND and Accuracy of (Black/White) Enfeebles was suspected from when people first played RDM. Initially there was no Enfeebling Skill Gear (the first piece that was introduced into the game was the Warlock's Tabard), and players loaded up on INT/MND gear so that they could land enfeebles more reliably.

JP need to know how things work so they did tests on how INT/MND affects accuracy. The problem is that Accuracy for Enfeebles is really difficult to measure, as you can't measure it directly. Therefore you need a huge number of samples to reduce the standard deviation (variation) to a point where you can actually tell whether two sets of results are statistically different. Tests were done and a relationship between INT/MND and the accuracy of enfeebles was shown. I'd guess most of it is lost in the past though. Once someone goes to the trouble to perform thousands of tests, the community will generally accept the results and move on, rather than repeating evey couple of months.

http://vnboards.ign.com/the_red_mage/b22541/65019390/p1/?48

This thread (from Vault, one of the original "serious" boards for NA RDMs) has some of the discussion of one of those JP tests. The JP data that was used is long gone, so if you don't believe that there's any effect on accuracy from INT/MND, then this thread is unlikely to convince you. It was the first place I actually saw numbers and formulae for Enfeebles, and it was the first time the NA community and there was a huge amount of data on the referred JP site that backed it up. (This thread marks another milestone too, as the first time NAs found there was a 30% cap on Slow and that the amount Slowed at Casters MND = mob MND ws ~14% although it was incorrectly interpreted as a "Floor" for the effect).

 

[Uzor]

A BST won't be fighting mobs 40 lvls beneath him. If you took your 40 dex with 0 acc enhancements against an EM monster, you would hit for very low accuracy. BST with a high MND set can land enfeebles on EM-T mobs because of the effectiveness of MND.

Just like a PLD/BST with a CHR+ set can charm fairly well.

BST is somewhat unique though. If you have PLD at 75 and BST at 75, subbing BST will still give the same reliability and duration on charm as a 75 BST would. Not exactly the same, but close to it. Charm from BST SJ, counts close to full effect of a BST the same lvl as your main job, assuming that your BST is the same lvl your main job is. So using charm as an example isn't that smart.

And yes, but they mentioned they could land it on lvl 50 and 60 mobs, and I assumed they were 75, since they were talking abotu BST. And I enver argued MND and INT don't give magic accuracy. Hell, from personal experience I can safely say that MND and INT do add to magic accuracy.

 

[Courtney]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Calculating_Magic_Damage

Mob level doesn't seem to be a factor in calculating Elemental Magic Damage

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Level_Correction_Function_and_pDIF

while it is a factor in calculating Physical Damage.

Do you have anything that says it's a factor in Enfeebling Accuracy or Potency?

 

[pchan]

The link between INT/MND and Accuracy of (Black/White) Enfeebles was suspected from when people first played RDM. Initially there was no Enfeebling Skill Gear (the first piece that was introduced into the game was the Warlock's Tabard), and players loaded up on INT/MND gear so that they could land enfeebles more reliably.

JP need to know how things work so they did tests on how INT/MND affects accuracy. The problem is that Accuracy for Enfeebles is really difficult to measure, as you can't measure it directly. Therefore you need a huge number of samples to reduce the standard deviation (variation) to a point where you can actually tell whether two sets of results are statistically different. Tests were done and a relationship between INT/MND and the accuracy of enfeebles was shown. I'd guess most of it is lost in the past though. Once someone goes to the trouble to perform thousands of tests, the community will generally accept the results and move on, rather than repeating evey couple of months.

http://vnboards.ign.com/the_red_mage/b22541/65019390/p1/?48

This thread (from Vault, one of the original "serious" boards for NA RDMs) has some of the discussion of one of those JP tests. The JP data that was used is long gone, so if you don't believe that there's any effect on accuracy from INT/MND, then this thread is unlikely to convince you. It was the first place I actually saw numbers and formulae for Enfeebles, and it was the first time the NA community and there was a huge amount of data on the referred JP site that backed it up. (This thread marks another milestone too, as the first time NAs found there was a 30% cap on Slow and that the amount Slowed at Casters MND = mob MND ws ~14% although it was incorrectly interpreted as a "Floor" for the effect).

I understand that spell accuracy is hard to test. The other day it took me 3 H to cast 2x80 times sleep1 on some fucking flan to finally see that 16 Maccuracy was boosting my accuracy by 48% (thus 3% per accuracy). Now i have to test what 15 skill from AF body do and compare the 2, to give me a idea of what the ratio is. (1-1, 1-2 ?), but since the sample is so tiny (80 spells) everyone understands that you won't get such precise estimate as 1 macc=1.15 skill or stuff like that.


Now for what concern the effect of int/mnd on accuracy i think it's nearly impossible to test that. I mean, even a naked rdm with no enfeebling merits will land Paralyze on IT 90% of the time, unless the mob as special resistance. If you cast paralyze 100 times with gear 1 and see 90 success, then put gear2 and get 91 success, can you seriously conclude that gear2 is better than gear1 ?

 

[Ruffyreborn]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Calculating_Magic_Damage

Mob level doesn't seem to be a factor in calculating Elemental Magic Damage

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Level_Correction_Function_and_pDIF

while it is a factor in calculating Physical Damage.

Do you have anything that says it's a factor in Enfeebling Accuracy or Potency?

well, in a sense, mobs level is a factor, because higher lv mobs will have more MND/INT, which makes spells more difficult to land. Same with physical damage

 

[Uzor]

No, but it should be easy enough to try out as melee75/BLM01 with -INT gear. Or WHM|RDM sub with -MND gear

From my understanding, elemental magic damage always ignores target level (similar to how ranged attack worked in the past), while mobs of very high level always seem to have high magic resistance. Although I suppose that could be one of several things, a higher MND/INT difference (although no matter how much MND or INT you have, they always seem to resist you the same rate), or a natural "resist" trait, similar to how they make some mobs completely immune to X enfeeble. I suppose its possible that magic attacks ignore level both in terms of damage and accuracy, due to being "magical"

 

[Courtney]

well, in a sense, mobs level is a factor, because higher lv mobs will have more MND/INT, which makes spells more difficult to land. Same with physical damage

In which case mob level isn't a factor. In the physical damage formula, level difference is a modifier.

 

[Courtney]

I understand that spell accuracy is hard to test. The other day it took me 3 H to cast 2x80 times sleep1 on some fucking flan to finally see that 16 Maccuracy was boosting my accuracy by 48% (thus 3% per accuracy). Now i have to test what 15 skill from AF body do and compare the 2, to give me a idea of what the ratio is. (1-1, 1-2 ?), but since the sample is so tiny (80 spells) everyone understands that you won't get such precise estimate as 1 macc=1.15 skill or stuff like that.


Now for what concern the effect of int/mnd on accuracy i think it's nearly impossible to test that. I mean, even a naked rdm with no enfeebling merits will land Paralyze on IT 90% of the time, unless the mob as special resistance. If you cast paralyze 100 times with gear 1 and see 90 success, then put gear2 and get 91 success, can you seriously conclude that gear2 is better than gear1 ?

You don't test on a mob that's near the ceiling for enfeebling accuracy.

In the same way that you don't test the effect of sushi on something you're already hitting at nearly 95%.

 

[Ruffyreborn]

In which case mob level isn't a factor. In the physical damage formula, level difference is a modifier.

well ya, but Im just saying, normally higher level mobs will have higher INT (which I know isnt always the case, but is in a lot of them)

Magic Pots in sky are an example, I know many a BLM whos spells, even elemental, get resisted. This is due to huge amounts of INT, but they can easily land one of these spells on a god

 

[Courtney]

well ya, but Im just saying, normally higher level mobs will have higher INT (which I know isnt always the case, but is in a lot of them)

Magic Pots in sky are an example, I know many a BLM whos spells, even elemental, get resisted. This is due to huge amounts of INT, but they can easily land one of these spells on a god

No it isn't. If you have a look at that link, Pots have a 50% damage modifier.

 

[neophytal]

the amount ofstupid RDM out there scare me.. ugh

 

[pchan]

..which is incorrect, as with my examples of Bio and Dia, they don't stop at Elemental potency.

Your examples are no example so stop your shit.

BIO= dark magic
DIA= enfeebling but light staff doesnt improve dia dmg. Show me a pic of dia 2 doing 8 dmg.

Also never heard of the gramatical structure called ellipse ?

In the phrase "Elemental Staff only affect Elemental potency, not enfeebling" what you think the word enfeebling is referring to ? enfeebling merit ? enfeebling spell ? enfeebling table ? This obviously refers to enfeebling potency, hence elemental staff don't affect enfeebling potency.

SERIOUSLY SKAW stop this crap.

 

[pchan]

You don't test on a mob that's near the ceiling for enfeebling accuracy.

In the same way that you don't test the effect of sushi on something you're already hitting at nearly 95%.

Exactly so what kind of mob will resist paralye 50% of the time ?

 

[Ruffyreborn]

No it isn't. If you have a look at that link, Pots have a 50% damage modifier.

I mean a tier 4 nuke with Elemental Seal being resisted totally, I dont mean damage reduced. It was "Magic pot resists the spell." It was a rare occasion, and unlucky for the BLM, but it wasnt a damage modifier from the pot, but instead the spell being made useless because of the INT getting a lucky roll from the pot

Edit: I talked with some BLM's in my LS, and basically it can happen both ways, from the pots natural magic defense, and its higher INT. I was under the assumption that magic defense would lower the spells damage (instead of being resisted, it would be 0) and the mobs higher INT would resist the spell

 

[Skaw]

BIO= dark magic
DIA= enfeebling but light staff doesnt improve dia dmg. Show me a pic of dia 2 doing 8 dmg.

Anyone else want to tell this little bitch that light staff does affect Dia's initial hit? I'm tired of it.

In the phrase "Elemental Staff only affect Elemental potency, not enfeebling" what you think the word enfeebling is referring to ? enfeebling merit ? enfeebling spell ? enfeebling table ? This obviously refers to enfeebling potency, hence elemental staff don't affect enfeebling potency.

Regardless of what you meant, "only" was fucking wrong, dumbfuck. It affects everything that does damage, regardless of magic class. Dark and Divine aren't "elemental," but are affected. Maybe if you realized Elemental was the word of a specific type of magic, you wouldn't seem like such a retard.

I mean a tier 4 nuke with Elemental Seal being resisted totally, I dont mean damage reduced. It was "Magic pot resists the spell." It was a rare occasion, and unlucky for the BLM, but it wasnt a damage modifier from the pot, but instead the spell being made useless because of the INT getting a lucky roll from the pot

Are you sure the Magic Pot didn't use the move that makes it highly resistant to magic?

 

[Courtney]

Exactly so what kind of mob will resist paralye 50% of the time ?

Something with a resist paralyze trait, or resistance to Ice. Or you can use something with a resistance to wind / gravity, or earth / slow, or dark / blind / sleep.

Dynamis Xarca PLD and WHM mobs have a decent resistance to sleep. With ~300 Enfeebling you're probably around 50%.

High level Worms will probably resist slow enough. The highest crabs may resist Paralyse, although maybe not enough. Most mobs will have some resistance to an element or an effect.