Thf/RNG merits

lionsheart said:
Also most of the best ones have to eat sushi in north camp because of the lurkers, while thf can just use feint to counter that and keep using meat. Of coz if you have a thf in party most meelees can use meat there, but since for those cannon jobs, you have to sacrifice a ton of haste gear for meat to work which most of the nin/mnk/war would avoid that.

1 small reminder, berzerk will be only up for 3/5 of the time, and more often than not it WILL NOT make Thief's WS significantly stronger.

Unless all 5 of your meelee are top of their game or your whm has some magical ability that I dunno, I dun see how you can make a 5 meelee 1 whm party work at all in north camp. A lot of the TP moves are inevitable like multi-hit WS + firesplit. And with 5 meelee wacking at it it's gonna be very ugly. Or unless you are talking about the south camp fighting tons of puks...

Seriously, I really wanna learn how you do your routine, especially with no dispel, prolly no slow, no para no silence. How you keep all your meelees healed in that situation without resting?
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who said anything about not resting? You still have time to rest. I never mentioned EVERYONE subbing WAR. You still need a NIN or WAR that holds hate most of the time. What I said was that I don't see how you would become any more of a MP sink by 1 or 2 people subbing NIN.

And no, I don't count either of you as the best THF's. There's a reason mandau users sub WAR. While yes, I do agree that mandau is a whole other ballfield, but WAR is an excellent sub even before you get mandau.

As for the no dispel, a 5th melee can make up for that. And there's an excellent spell called barfira. With AF2 legs and fully merited bar-spells, the damage from that isn't really all that bad. And as a WHM with fully merited enfeebling, altruistic cape, nashira legs, enfeebling earing and enfeebling torque, silencing stuff really isn't all that hard. You DO know WHMes get silence, don't you?

Necrosis said:
I was wondering this myself.

So, in summation: /war is more powerful than /nin, no one's arguing that, but only if you can safely use WSs whenever you have TP.

If you're a good/great/awesome THF, and you go /war, you will pull hate, and you will get hit eventually, causing the mages to devote more of their MP in curing you. It's a matter of effectiveness here.
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Getting hit every so often won't be a problem. Seriously. I do admit it'd be a problem if you tank all the time. But unless the other melees in the party suck, that won't be the case.
 
Uzor said:
And no, I don't count either of you as the best THF's. There's a reason mandau users sub WAR. While yes, I do agree that mandau is a whole other ballfield, but WAR is an excellent sub even before you get mandau.
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Why are you stating that in such black-and-white terms? /war is obviously better for DoT, but /nin has survivability and better mercy stroke damage.
 
A /nin mandau user beat out a /war mandau user on trolls in a publicly availiable parse.
 
Khajit said:
A /nin mandau user beat out a /war mandau user on trolls in a publicly availiable parse.
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An axe/axe war beat out a axe/ridill war in a publically available parse.

I guess Ridill sucks?

Seriously people, stop quoting parses as the word of god. Can't you guys just accept that /WAR is good, and /NIN is good. Both have their pro's and cons. WAR gives more attack and damage with less survivability, while NIN gives less attack, but faster attack speed and survivability. Don't see why there needs to be a "best."
 
Zoolander said:
An axe/axe war beat out a axe/ridill war in a publically available parse.

I guess Ridill sucks?

Seriously people, stop quoting parses as the word of god. Can't you guys just accept that /WAR is good, and /NIN is good. Both have their pro's and cons. WAR gives more attack and damage with less survivability, while NIN gives less attack, but faster attack speed and survivability. Don't see why there needs to be a "best."
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I didnt say that /war sucked I was showing that Uzor and his general statement declaring /war> all was incorrect.
These were 2 mandau thf that had the "best" gear availiable and no real diference on them outside of subjob. The fact that there was almost no difference between the two speaks volumes about how the two SJ arent that different in terms of damage output.

Also technically when one considers the fact that ridill users parse lower than axe/axe wars in certain situations normally involving the ridll war tanking from dmg output yes ridill does suck vs axe/axe when the other DD arent up to par with you enough for you not to waste the advantages of ridill casting utsu ichi constantly when you can only have to cast ni-->ni with axe/axe and get more swings/dot since you dont waste time casting. From that information if you go as a war and the other DD arent ridill wars or capable of keeping up with one axe/axe would result in you doing a higher % or you need to get better DD to keepup with you. Parses arent god but so long as you know the context of how the party was they are still useful.

The only people here that haven't accepted that each SJ is situtational and should vary depending on situation for thf are the ones that dont even have thf leveled generally so far.
 
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Think this thread will manage to have even one page without somone spreading misinformation about thf?
 
Khajit said:
I didnt say that /war sucked I was showing that Uzor and his general statement declaring /war> all was incorrect.
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I didn't say /WAR > all. I said WAR was a good THF sub. I also said that most of the time, /WAR will outdamage /NIN without becoming a MP sponge.

Wow, people really are morons. I'm about to lose all faith in humanity.
 
Uzor said:
I didn't say /WAR > all. I said WAR was a good THF sub. I also said that most of the time, /WAR will outdamage /NIN without becoming a MP sponge.

Wow, people really are morons. I'm about to lose all faith in humanity.
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If it was possible to sub war without tanking and being forced to hold back I would do it more often but quite frankly going all out on war does create an mp sponge and slow down the party because time and mp wasted curing me is far bettter used hasteing and buffing. Not only that but when shit DOES hit you it hurts alot and I doubt that the mp used to get me out of the red because a bugard hit me or a mamool used rampage ect or would be best used keeping my ass alive when a simple sj change would fix all that while while simultaneously buffing my attack speed. The only situation where that might differ is a cannon party where either A. the thf is getting outclassed badly or b. trolls where the extra atk is needed.
 
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Khajit said:
If it was possible to sub war without tanking and being forced to hold back I would do it more often but quite frankly going all out on war does create an mp sponge and slow down the party because time and mp wasted curing me is far bettter used hasteing and buffing. Not only that but when shit DOES hit you it hurts alot and I doubt that the mp used to get me out of the red because a bugard hit me or a mamool used rampage ect or would be best used keeping my ass alive when a simple sj change would fix all that.
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Which is where the WHM come in play... since I'll assume you have a BRD in the party, it will be even LESS of a problem then if it was 5 melees. My Cure V's heal for 900. So that rampage or fire spit won't be a problem when I get the MP back in roughly 1 min, assuming I don't /heal. Barfira takes 1 sec to cast, so how would you be wasting time? Protectra and Shellra is on a 30 min recast. So I highly doubt you'll lose much time "buffing". Haste is on a 2.5 min recast time, And I rarely, rarely miss recasting a haste as soon as it wears off. So yes, that's not because of your sub. That's because of your bad WHM. It have nothing to do with the sub you chose.
 
One could say that the problem with THF/WAR is they occasionally pull hate despite TA, yes. The bigger issue though is when it comes to things like cannons, the NINs and WARs for some heaven forsaken reason will only once in a blue moon actually provoke off a /WAR job or someone who's trying to get Ichi up. It's the lack of members watching out for eachother that makes /WAR more of a detriment to the party than it hasto be.
 
See, mish ges my point. The problem in't the sub itself. Its the other people in the party. a WH Mcan easily handle a few hits every fight without running out of MP or slacking off in other areas unless he sucks.

a THF with WAR sub can also handle themselves well. It just requires a slightly different tactic.

It works great if the other people in the party doesn't suck

see?
 
When the average mob lasts 30-45s, I highly doubt a single provoke from another melee will change the fact that you'll still pull hate. THF/WAR just isn't practical (especially in thickets) for the same reason MNK/WAR isn't.
 
Uzor said:
I didn't say /WAR > all. I said WAR was a good THF sub. I also said that most of the time, /WAR will outdamage /NIN without becoming a MP sponge.

Wow, people really are morons. I'm about to lose all faith in humanity.
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Actually no, you said a lot of quite different things. Now you've adjusted.
Don't be a sore little bitch because you're wrong.
 
Mishaela said:
One could say that the problem with THF/WAR is they occasionally pull hate despite TA, yes. The bigger issue though is when it comes to things like cannons, the NINs and WARs for some heaven forsaken reason will only once in a blue moon actually provoke off a /WAR job or someone who's trying to get Ichi up. It's the lack of members watching out for eachother that makes /WAR more of a detriment to the party than it hasto be.
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Yes indeed, in regards to all.
Even if you have people that do provoke when Ichi is being cast or to pull hate off a /WAR job, often times that's not good enough. Sometimes a weapon skill of their own won't pull it either. This holds especially true in regards to when one of the "tanks" has had a TA+WS laid on him. Despite the fight lasting less than a minute, not being able to pull hate off that person could lead to death if the MOB decides to go TP crazy.

Laying tons of hate on a tank or two is better for longer, drawn out fights. In merits, the ability to come as lolNINsub and still take hate at will, save lives and mp, and keep the flow of XP moving (in the VAST majority of camps and party setups) far outweighs the "benefit" of /WAR.
 
This is kinda a wierd 'alla'esque arguement now.

All subs are good on thief, and all are equally situational.

Again, as stated in my original post, Merit for how you play.

A more detailed breakdown of why I merit the way I do:

Str: Str help avoid hitting 0's, and helps with the most base challenge in weaponskills: your Str vs Mobs' Vit. In any other job for the most part, Str is the modifier for WS.

Crit Hit: kinda passed over this on the last post, pretty obvious.
Spell Interupt: I want to max this out for the -8% interupt rate while soloing. Coupled with Magnetic earring gives me -16% interupt, pretty good for soloing.

8 Sword: Ridill
1 Axe: to match Sword/Axe on war: 271/271
3 GK: SAM

Thief:
5 TA: HNM
5 Triple Attack: Wasted by having a Ridill, it's more for when I sub Sam, Drk or War.
3 Assassin's charge: 10 min recast, pretty much use it sporatically during HNM, they usually don't last longer than 10 min, paired with:
1 Feint: again HNM don't last more than 10 min.
2 Ambush: like stated really nice for SA'ing or SATA'ing weaponskills like Evisceration.

I don't merit to merit. Imo its too much of a pain to get parties on thief, and the parties that would invite a thief, need one, and generally suck. Even though I know thief pulls thier weight in parties, no one else knows that...

The main problem I see is that thieves generally are kinda hosed for gameplay as is in most things they do:

HNM: "z0mg thief TP'ing the monstorz LAWLHOLYSHIT /cry."
= Drop in the thief at the end.

Merit Party: "z0mg lolthief dagger damage." "z0mg thief fuckz up teh hate fur mee"
While I can hold my own in a merit pt, i really can't argue the thief fucking up hate... ...they really do.

Missions/Quests: 90% of the time you will be passed up for some other /thf job if that's what's needed.

So the Thf/War vs Thf/Nin debate is kinda moot...
To my closed little nugget of a brain there's only 2 roles for thief:
1) if your LS is not stupid, they leave you in for HNM fights and use you for SC, which you should be subbing /SAM or /DRK for anyways.
2) solo/duo'ing. In which you will likely be tanking.

So for that arguement, the only time you'd use /war as far as I can see, is for claiming.
 
Sneakypants said:
Actually no, you said a lot of quite different things. Now you've adjusted.
Don't be a sore little bitch because you're wrong.
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No, I never adjusted once. Don't try a pathetic excuse for an insult just because you can't keep up.
 
Uzor said:
No, I never adjusted once. Don't try a pathetic excuse for an insult just because you can't keep up.
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I'm not going to bother digging into all your posts, quoting you to prove it. Everyone can read.

Tough cookies for you. You're just like the other guy that came in here that doesn't play THF. Making gross assumptions, then chaging your tune to cover your tracks. Go Cure V for 900 or something, and trust that I won't come and tell you the best way to do that. lol
 
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