/breaklinkshell

I don't know anyone in this linkshell, I don't think anyway, but if 13 people thought you were so unfair that they thought the only way to resolve the situation was to stage a coup and basically oust you then it's really stretching to point blame at them.

It sounds like no one thought they could talk to you at all, you admit this yourself when you say no one would give you a chance to explain. Your rules and decisions seemed to be questioned regularly, and from what I read do seem rather unfair, and your not even able to run the shell full time due to RL issues. Not your fault by any means but obviously this does not allow you to give a linkshell and its members the attention they deserve.

I wouldn't of posted this flame and would of just let this event quietly die. I think you made things worse and put yourself in a more detrimental position. At the end of the day, regardless of how unfair it seems, it's the linkshell leader who should be held accountable.
Even for arguments sake, if you did things 100% right in your mind and still got the boot, it means you failed as a leader.

Not specifically aimed at you but there's plenty of injustice that goes on in this game and I wish more people had the courage to say enough is a enough and to throw the bums out. I've been in plenty of shells with horrendous leadership but no one had the guts, including myself, to do anything about it.
 
So from what gotten from this Arezael tried run shell like normal and celv try to return to leader and run it the way he wanted (im sure long day in desert he had 1000 ideas how to change the shell) there was no communication on either side and both you most likly had group of members hat sending you tells bitch and complaing this how the shell should be run. The inevible problem arose and instead of working it out together one said i think about come down the other started thinking about ku against the main leader. Then you say that he was trying screw mdk out the gear, but then you split shell and don't let Khajit who was the highest on tier join? Seem that the one playing faviorites here is arez not celv. Reguardless if khajit was late for 1 run (which i agree should not been able lot that run) he had most points and that gear was his to have. You not allowing him to join screwed him out a piece of gear that he earn from attendance so a friend who was next to lot could have. The "he was going leave after the gear" has no relevence if it a point system. His use of the gear has no relevance either. Don't get me wrong nobody like the guy get his gear and run because that is a dick run, but in same token he didn't just get on top of tier magicly.
 
Tomasello said:
I don't know anyone in this linkshell, I don't think anyway, but if 13 people thought you were so unfair that they thought the only way to resolve the situation was to stage a coup and basically oust you then it's really stretching to point blame at them.

It sounds like no one thought they could talk to you at all, you admit this yourself when you say no one would give you a chance to explain. Your rules and decisions seemed to be questioned regularly, and from what I read do seem rather unfair, and your not even able to run the shell full time due to RL issues. Not your fault by any means but obviously this does not allow you to give a linkshell and its members the attention they deserve.

I wouldn't of posted this flame and would of just let this event quietly die. I think you made things worse and put yourself in a more detrimental position. At the end of the day, regardless of how unfair it seems, it's the linkshell leader who should be held accountable.
Even for arguments sake, if you did things 100% right in your mind and still got the boot, it means you failed as a leader.

Not specifically aimed at you but there's plenty of injustice that goes on in this game and I wish more people had the courage to say enough is a enough and to throw the bums out. I've been in plenty of shells with horrendous leadership but no one had the guts, including myself, to do anything about it.
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Not really, people don't like fast changes he could been trying something for good of the shell, but was moving to fast and did not explain clearly enough that it was taken as leader corruption. Also remember celv had been gone for at least 9 months, so half the people might not even known who he was. Fault is on both leaders not one, for working as 2 diffrent people with diffrent agendas instead of working together to make a good shell where both old and new members happy.
 
hellstorm said:
So from what gotten from this Arezael tried run shell like normal and celv try to return to leader and run it the way he wanted (im sure long day in desert he had 1000 ideas how to change the shell) there was no communication on either side and both you most likly had group of members hat sending you tells bitch and complaing this how the shell should be run. The inevible problem arose and instead of working it out together one said i think about come down the other started thinking about ku against the main leader. Then you say that he was trying screw mdk out the gear, but then you split shell and don't let Khajit who was the highest on tier join? Seem that the one playing faviorites here is arez not celv. Reguardless if khajit was late for 1 run (which i agree should not been able lot that run) he had most points and that gear was his to have. You not allowing him to join screwed him out a piece of gear that he earn from attendance so a friend who was next to lot could have. The "he was going leave after the gear" has no relevence if it a point system. His use of the gear has no relevance either. Don't get me wrong nobody like the guy get his gear and run because that is a dick run, but in same token he didn't just get on top of tier magicly.
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He didn't refuse to let Khajit join. If he did, or even if he (Khajit) cared, I'm sure Khajit would have said something on Sunday when he was in the Salvage shell with Mdk, Pchan and Arez when we talked about it...
 
There is one piece of information that I had forgotten to include in response to your original post Celvantes, and I answer it here.

When you asked me for a pearl to my own ls, so that you could talk to them and say whatever it was you felt you needed to, I replied to you that it was fine in my own esteem. But I told you that it would be a linkshell decision. I asked them if they wanted me to give you a pearl to do so, the immediate reply was "no".

I will also correct some of you in various issues. At the point in time that we were doing Omega, Mdk and Khajit were level on points at the top of that tier. the only difference between the two was one turned up on time, tanked the mob, did their work. The other did nothing and if there was no other difference between them, that will always be enough for me.

At the point in time Gregedor obtained the Nashira manteel and seraweels, he was 3rd and 4th place on the Nashira tier respectively. He did not have enough attendance points to obtain either item from anyone above, who all needed those items. Your own "reserved list" rule made sure he got those items without having had to do the work necessary. Three of the people on that list above Gregedor had been in the ls for less time than he, and had accumulated points over him for simply having attended runs. This is just one such example.

Sunday (yesterday) I decided to make the change of linkshell. I'm sure you're really trying your best to be civil, but if you think that I have had the time to speak to all 22 other members of the ls then you're mistaken. I no longer possessed the BK pearl, and you and I spoke as soon as I'd logged in, minus the 10 mins I was afk. I left it to you to tell the rest of the ls my offer of them joining us while keeping their attendance points etc. I'm sure this was an unspoken agreement between us, because that's what you did, and I duly waited for you to speak to them, as you'd asked. A few replied to me.

As regards the people who were holding chips:

Orta: 3/4 Omega chips
Qla: 3/6 Ultima chips (one of which is her own from her prior ls)
Hach: 1/6 Ultima chips

Whoever has stated that I left with a full set, a near full set or infact anything stolen is an outright liar. These people above will confirm to you what they hold.

I have obtained from my time in BK the Nashira crackows as a result of my attendance. (15 months of runs twice weekly, I've missed 5 runs total). I was the second highest person on the tier for Nashira items, a clear 54 points above the 3rd place person. Any combination of Nashira Manteel + seraweels, 2 x seraweels, or gages at any point and I would have been guaranteed to obtain one if I chose to use my points. Don't kid yourself into thinking I needed to do anything untoward to get items.

As regards "assigning boss drops". No, just shut the fuck up. The attendance spreadsheet was available for everyone to see, this has been made clear a million times before. I read out names from the top to the bottom of that posted sheet. I wasn't present on every boss run, because if you were honest you'd say we split nearly every run we've been on, including boss fights. I gave up my place in the Omega fights to anyone on the tier so that they could obtain items should the chance befall them. The list of who was to obtain what, was as I'm repeating again, available for anyone to call out, and had no possibility of input or interpretation for change from anyone, leader or otherwise.

I will note to you, that until now(this flame), I have not labelled you a liar or other such petty insults, because the majority of the ls were present on Wednesday and saw what you attempted to do with Khajit. Some of us remember this exact same incident with Hach. I didn't say anything about your conduct unbecoming, because I didn't have to.

The leaders of the linkshell are only there to form parties, job assignments, finish the zones we needed for complete chipsets. There's no power for them to do anything to alter who got what drops.

Celvantes said:
I didn't have to 'try' I could have just changed the rules.
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Still to this day, you believe being an Ls holder accords you some right to do whatever the fuck you want.

The fact that you think it's ok for someone to be over an hour late to Limbus, have the same points as another, and not contributed to the run (Khajit had also missed 2 of the farming runs for that Omega set) in any way whatsoever, compared to the other having been on time, done their share of the work, yet still have the rights to lot tells me everything I need to know about you.

There wasn't a rule written anywhere about people Ninja lotting items or stealing of any kind.

Why should there have to be?

Being at the top of the tier doesn't give you carte blanche to skip runs, skip boss fights, but only turn up at the very end and expect to be invited in to lot the drops. It's clear that you and I differ on this viewpoint, but one of us is right and fair, the other is not.
 
Uzor said:
He didn't refuse to let Khajit join. If he did, or even if he (Khajit) cared, I'm sure Khajit would have said something on Sunday when he was in the Salvage shell with Mdk, Pchan and Arez when we talked about it...
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I told Celvantes at the time that we were speaking on Sunday (he was making judicious use of the Shift/Caps lock key) that I did not intend to offer him a place in our shell. I specifically omitted names, but referred to it as "those who attempted to steal". I expected him to offer an apology before I accorded him the right to join. I left room for some (unlikely) explanation of his version of events, and he did in fact oblige. He apologised, and I took him at his word.

Khajit has done his fair share of work, and, along with every single other member has been afforded the right to join us. They were told they'd keep their points under those circumstances. I don't know how many other ways I can say it. The change is only to remove people from positions whereby they think they can do what they want, unfairly so.

I don't expect everyone will join us, I'm sure some feel injusticed - I can only apologise that I've not been able to speak to you all personally about this, but it is just a fact of life combined with several differing time zones.

It's sad that you chose to start this flame because until now I'd chosen to believe you were a decent person and merely misguided. I make no bones with the fact you're an amiable person and a good Paladin.
 
This does not even sound like FFXI anymore.
 
I've preached this for a long time...a huge key to a successful points system that has fixed points cost instead of pure bidding is that the item costs be high enough. Especially something like Limbus that is more casual and gear oriented than a full on end game LS, if the points system is not correctly setup, shit will hit the fan.

There really doesn't even need to be any more explanation other than pointing out that Boss drops were 5 points and how many points you could earn from one run. That's just horrendous and incredibly skewed to gear older members. Either way, its limbus. People's tolerance will only go so far for an event LS that meets twice a week for an hour at a time. If there is a better and convenient opportunity elsewhere, you can kiss your LS goodbye.

I hope you guys fix(ed) that item cost in the new shell. 5 points...lol
 
what is this "reserve list" that you guys mentioned?

and i dont think being a leader will have the rights to change the rules when he/she feels like it. if it turns the members away, you screwed youself, with new rule and no members.

if the same few people getting pretty much every drops, there is something wrong with the leaders.
 
Spalko said:
what is this "reserve list" that you guys mentioned?

and i dont think being a leader will have the rights to change the rules when he/she feels like it. if it turns the members away, you screwed youself, with new rule and no members.

if the same few people getting pretty much every drops, there is something wrong with the leaders.
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As Celv and a few other people mentioned, the reserve list was used to transition the shell into a point system from what had previous to Celv's leadership a system of the leader just deciding who got what.
It was everyone's best attempt at moving from one system to another without screwing people who had been next in line for a piece of gear.

I know that I haven't played in a while but I can say that Celv was always a nice person and in my experience, a good leader. I think that this is probably something that could have been discussed within the shell and resolved. Instead, it sounds like a faction ( or clique) in BK did not like losing control of the shell after Celv got back and found an excuse to make their own shell to keep that control.

Sorry that this happened Celv, I don't think that you deserved it and I think it was a chickenshit way for them to do this. The fact they couldn't even be bothered to discuss their issues on the BK board first shows that they didn't even want to give you the opportunity to explain. Good luck and I hope you find a better class of players to run with.
 
The "Reserve List" was a crock anyway. Back when I was on the Reserve List for Homam Pants (and having gotten nothing from the shell at all at that point), the pants dropped and I wasn't allowed to lot on them. The point system was also silly since it was a static 5 points taken off for an item rather than any logical system to knock people off of the top. I ended up leaving shortly thereafter for unrelated reasons that I wrote a long flame about ages ago, but I never agreed with the way homam/nash were distributed in the shell regardless of who was leading at the time.

Hate to see this happen, especially since I like a lot of folks in the shell, but I completely understand why it did.
 
Tomasello said:
Not specifically aimed at you but there's plenty of injustice that goes on in this game and I wish more people had the courage to say enough is a enough and to throw the bums out. I've been in plenty of shells with horrendous leadership but no one had the guts, including myself, to do anything about it.
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I encourage everyone to rather than complain about how bad your ls is to people who aren't in your ls and can't help you to either try to actually deal with it inside your ls (talk to leaders ect.) or move on and leave if you really can't stand it (last resort), I can not help you other than saying "oh that's too bad."

While it can be hard to stand up for yourself and sometimes go against people you may even consider friends, it can be a huge weight off your shoulder to no longer work under a system you do not believe in. If those who left and made their new ls honestly feel this way then I congratulate you, I guess I'm just not clear as to how much of an effort was made to avoid this extreem measure but its not really my buisness anyways I'm just posting in hopes of no more depressing stories about all these different ls's I keep hearing about from friends.
 
Rappa said:
Hate to see this happen, especially since I like a lot of folks in the shell, but I completely understand why it did.
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For once I 100% agree with Rappa. Its sad that we, as a community, find so much enjoyment and pleasure in reading a board that is nothing but stupidity and despair.

OP: Everyone has their differences especially when it comes to leadership. There is nothing you can do when the herd is sent off in another direction other than to move on. I hope you both see this and drop the petty arguement. It is a game. When it ends neither of you will have anything other than your FriendLists and your reputation. How do you want to be remembered?
 
At some point a portion of this board is going to have to focus on some of the things being said. I've read through this a few times and some of you are clearly commenting without having any clue of what went on, despite evidence to the contrary.

Nobody had power when I ran the shell, the last 6 months.

Everyone was treated fairly. Everyone want uniformly subject to the same rules. Nobody had any right to change anything. Every decision was made with the entire group's consent. This is why nothing changed.

Where people pulled this idea of "cliques" from our Ls is beyond me. I felt an obligation and a responsibility to each and every member of the ls. You might have already seen the original post declaring people would keep their attendance and be allowed to join us. If I felt in any way biased, please, please explain to me why I invited people into the ls that I didn't like, and who were above me for items?

I think it's chickenshit some of you are posting with the only basis of friend defense as your viewpoint. Being a nice person is all well and good. It doesn't mean you're never guilty of anything.
 
Bladewind said:
Jesus christ, do you ever get tired of looking fucking stupid?
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Butthurt again because I fucking said something about your friend? If you really are that butthurt you can say something longer than 1 sentence. Not a problem if it is completely over your head.

Anyways back to what I was saying. Celvantes has always been a great guy, and honestly I'd stick up for him regardless of the situation. Guy has been through alot and been shit on numerous times...

Back to what Nyosan said, if Are did in fact leave right after BK completed his Ultima set, that is VERY shady. I think there have been flames that have been in correspondence to such. Didn't Rappa call that Dine and Dash? I forget.
 
As someone else stated earlier, just because you are a good person does not mean you are a good leader. Being in a leadership position means that you can be the nicest, coolest person in the world and still have hostility towards you if you are viewed as not doing your job well. It really is not up for debate as to whether a leader was doing their job correctly or not. If it comes down to the majority of people believing that leadership is not performing the way it should be, they have failed. End of discussion. It is the double edged sword that once again reveals some of the many parallels between Real Life and FFXI.

Just random thoughts that lead to no real conclusion: Many people, in RL and of course in FFXI, have a hard time distinguishing between the business side of things and the personal side of things. Disagreements within the "business" (or LS, which can be viewed as one) *should* be just business, but unfortunately many business disagreements lead to personal ones despite there being no initial personal conflicts. While one person may view things as "nothing personal," the other side receiving the criticism often does not take the same distanced stance. Its a shame it has to be that way, because it has most definitely ruined countless relationships in the real world and likely even more often in FFXI.
 
Rappa said:
Not really. Then again I don't expect much common sense from someone who thinks that fishing is a waste of time in FFXI.
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It was totally shameless. But I also laughed my ass off and wished I had thought of it.
 
jyakotsu said:
Back to what Nyosan said, if Are did in fact leave right after BK completed his Ultima set, that is VERY shady. I think there have been flames that have been in correspondence to such. Didn't Rappa call that Dine and Dash? I forget.
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Since you seem to be unable to read properly:

Arezael said:
As regards the people who were holding chips:

Orta: 3/4 Omega chips
Qla: 3/6 Ultima chips (one of which is her own from her prior ls)
Hach: 1/6 Ultima chips

Whoever has stated that I left with a full set, a near full set or infact anything stolen is an outright liar. These people above will confirm to you what they hold.
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This accounts for every single chip farmed in the linkshell. Notice that not a single one is a leader.

Go ahead and keep posting lies.

I'm really disappointed in you Nyosan, that was one of the lowest things I've seen on here so far.
 
Nyo wished you luck, I don't really see anything malicious in what he stated.
 
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