/breaklinkshell

[Mirewen]

I was one of the first members of BK when it started up as I was/am friends with Q. In the ~1.5+ years I spent in that shell (only left because I quit the game) I got a pair of Nash Feet. A piece I didn't even want (no one else did either) but it was that or nothing because the body and legs (the only 2 pieces I did need) were pretty much promised (and given) to 2 other people. So really, I don't understand what people are complaining about lol.

 

[Caerloc]

I dont even see why Khajit wouldnt be allowed to lot the body. Did he not have the points to be first? Doesnt that mean he already paied for it in full? Thats like telling someone you cant buy the milk cause you didnt help milk the cow.

Isnt the whole idea of a point system that when you get something, you have already earned it and paied for it? Would it be ok for him to miss a run prior to the omega run, and then come and spend his points?

 

[pchan]

I dont even see why Khajit wouldnt be allowed to lot the body. Did he not have the points to be first? Doesnt that mean he already paied for it in full? Thats like telling someone you cant buy the milk cause you didnt help milk the cow.

Isnt the whole idea of a point system that when you get something, you have already earned it and paied for it? Would it be ok for him to miss a run prior to the omega run, and then come and spend his points?

Because he was 1H late into the run, and had equal points to mdk.

 

[Arezael]

Firstly Hach, thanks for bringing up the point about tardiness.

The linkshell run times never changed, go and check the forum:

(Thread closed, so I'm copy and pasting):

Celvantes:
"General rules:

1. Be on time, please. As it a stands, there are no penalties for being late, other than missing out on the run. If it becomes a major problem (which it has never been in the past), there may be point penalties.

Run times are 5 PM Central Time (3 Pacific, 4 Mountain, 6 Eastern) on Wednesdays and 11:45 Central Time (9:45 Pacific, 10:45 Mountain, 12:45 Eastern) on Sundays. This means be in place ready to go (or at least *very* close to Jeuno) at that time. Meeting place is the soap NPC. There will be a point penalty for being late, check below for specifics."

As you can see the rules contradict themselves, but the system Celv used was to dock half your earned points if you were late for a run (but still made it). You got no points for not participating.

I've never once marked anyone as being late on the attendance sheet unless you turned up after the specified times.

Celvantes marked people late if you were one minute outside those marked times. I was more lenient and gave everyone an extra 15 minutes on Sunday. Hardly groundbreaking, but I expected people to start gathering together 15 minutes beforehand, in an effort to tidy up the persistent lateness of our runs. On my clock, people got marked late for turning up in the ls at 18:01 GMT Sunday, 23:01 GMT Wednesday. (13:01 and 18:01 EST respectively).

The only 2 occasions you were left behind (the last 8 months), you turned up in the ls when we were already in Al'taieu. We were on both occasions already late leaving Jeuno. One of those times you were approaching an hour late. You should be the first to admit you had difficulties for a good long period of time with your timekeeping. Others in the ls will be able to confirm it, but really trying to fabricate something isn't a good sign.

We had a major problem with timekeeping in the Ls. Not once, ever in the time I was in the Ls did we start a run exactly on time. Not once, ever did we run early. The vast majority of the time we started 20-30 minutes late, and it sometimes got as bad as over the hour mark.

If you recall a run starting early as you claim, then you are clearly mistaken in your recollection. I'll reiterate for you again, never, not once, was I able to get any run started on time. For whatever reason it was always, on every occasion, late. This is compared to the times Celvantes posted (quoted above). I'm not proud of it, but in the end there was only damage control as to how late we were, and sometimes people had to be left out who had turned up too late.

I actually know of the forum thread you're talking about, since it's closed I'm going to quote it all here, in it's entirety:

Spoiler:

Hach: 16 Oct 08

Hmm donno how to quote celvantes but after the BK lounge (The rules):

General rules:

1. Be on time, please. As it a stands, there are no penalties for being late, other than missing out on the run. If it becomes a major problem (which it has never been in the past), there may be point penalties.

Run times are 5 PM Central Time (3 Pacific, 4 Mountain, 6 Eastern) on Wednesdays and 11:45 Central Time (9:45 Pacific, 10:45 Mountain, 12:45 Eastern) on Sundays. This means be in place ready to go (or at least *very* close to Jeuno) at that time. Meeting place is the soap NPC. There will be a point penalty for being late, check below for specifics.

Bold for emphasis. Anyway.. when does the day light saving start? When it start, it will push the time forward by 1hr and i will be able to wake up but going to sleep later for sunday night~.~

Mdkuser: 16 Oct 08

EU swith on sunday 26th oct., USA switch on Sunday 2 Nov.

For me too, after daylight saving times, Einherjar will end 1h before limbus so I wouldn't be late on sundays at least ( JPs do not use daylight savings).

Hach: 16 Oct 08

so i suppose we are following the USA version >.>?

Cookamungas: 22 Oct 08

yea since celv is from usa, thats what we would do

Arezael: 22 Oct 08

To ensure there are no problems with time zones and savings adjustments, I'll be basing the time for runs from GMT.

Since GMT is static and never changes, nobody should have a problem knowing when the runs are due to start.

As a recap:

5 PM Central Time (3 Pacific, 4 Mountain, 6 Eastern) on Wednesdays is 11PM GMT

1:45 Central Time (9:45 Pacific, 10:45 Mountain, 12:45 Eastern) on Sundays is 5:45 PM GMT

Jussy: 23 Oct 08

11:45 CST*, not 1:45 lol

Arezael: 23 Oct 08

Yes nice catch, 1:45 CST should be 11:45 CST - typo.

Jussy: 30 Oct 08

Okay, I'm in Texas. Starting what day will I need to show up to Limbus at a different hour? Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT: Nevermind, I've got it figured out.

It was clear to everyone that we had confusion regarding run times on the odd occasion. Especially so during changes for Daylight savings.

You were always a really likeably guy, and I found you amusing, but unfortunately, you always had issues with your timekeeping. At the end of the day, you are the only person who has control over that.

 

[Caerloc]

Because he was 1H late into the run, and had equal points to mdk.

Did the omega run itself put him ontop of Khajit, or did it make him equal to?

 

[pchan]

Did the omega run itself put him ontop of Khajit, or did it make him equal to?

If he had attended he would have more points, but the point is he was not on time. Anyway it's been said, this is not the reason why the shell broke.

 

[pchan]

erm nvm they had the same point prior to the run.

 

[Khajit]

2. The way you left was shitty. Showing up late, due to "needing AP", which is I believe because you spent them all on running with KFC (I could be wrong, I am making my own conclusions here), not showing more and more towards the end. Even if I had everything I needed, I would've stuck it out til I saw Limi's body drop.

I didn't do ANY runs for KFC before making sure that i had AP for WOA first during my entire time. Whenever I did KFC runs I made sure I had the AP or tags available(assuming 1k a run minimum) to enter woa runs first.

 

[Khajit]

Oh yeah. and I tried to stick it out but the performances I'd seen on the last few times basically caused me to believe the ls would never get limi his body which essentially blew the final thing tying me to the ls at that point. They weren't aiming for drops for a majority of thier members and essentially aimed after ares + maybe something for some other guy that just happened to be in the same zone, Limi wasn't getting anything in the forseeable future. I did a pickup run with spare points once and the pickup with no experience before i dragged em in got to the same level as woa after 2 runs. By that point it would have been easier to try and do silver sea runs with people I randomly trained and then try to get limi along in the run while giving him the 35 drop.
The mismanagement has been pretty bad too. Seriously. You guys entered a week or two ago into Porrogo madness with 12 people and only did 4F when you had 2 people with lv 75 thf. It's either that or you entered 2 groups in and decided to NOT have the th4 thf change into thf for TH.

I'm not too amused by celvs coments lately either. well ok partially true. I am amused by him placing the blame on me for lold since that means they got hurt as a result of what they did to me which makes a little spark of glee within my heart. However considering celv outright said " And Khajit,this wouldn't have happened if it weren't for you. I hope you're happy" before placing blame on me for lold and woa i'm starting to get the impression he wasnt even truthful to the woa ls about what happened.

 

[Apu]

/Sigh

I was one of the first members of BK when it started up as I was/am friends with Q. In the ~1.5+ years I spent in that shell (only left because I quit the game) I got a pair of Nash Feet. A piece I didn't even want (no one else did either) but it was that or nothing because the body and legs (the only 2 pieces I did need) were pretty much promised (and given) to 2 other people. So really, I don't understand what people are complaining about lol.

As BK was around before it was passed to Q, I'm not exactly sure what your talking about.
As a member that has been absent 2 months due to winter workload, it sucks to see this happen. As a member who has watched the ls pass leadership twice, it is due to people whining about nashira. If you want an all ultima/all the the time ls, start 1 don't - hijack1.
I was not there for the run people are speaking of ... so I have no comment on that situation. I will say some people thought they were above the attendance rules & we usually were waiting on them to start the runs. Its interesting to me in my own opinion that these tardy people were the same people constantly nagging about nashira. I recently finished my homam set thanks to 4 years of waiting. We have had 3 leaders during this period and a well chosen leader in Celv's absence.
I would like to say thank you to those who helped me to complete my set. As for the new ls I wish them the best. After posting this maybe i won't be pearled but hey, i stuck with BK for the attitude of the people & the attitude had changed before I left for the winter.

"Thank you, Come again"

 

[Euphacent]

While this isn't really specifically regarding this topic, I just felt the need to say that reading threads like this make me really glad that I'm not playing this game anymore.

I understand both sides, but I can more directly relate to doing Limbus and not ever getting anything out of it except some coins and a piece or two of AF+1 (several years of it, never got a single boss drop).

I don't think I will ever be able to play a game again that requires 12 months or some insanely extended period to get just one or two items. It's not worth it.

 

[mdkuser]

The mismanagement has been pretty bad too. Seriously. You guys entered a week or two ago into Porrogo madness with 12 people and only did 4F when you had 2 people with lv 75 thf. It's either that or you entered 2 groups in and decided to NOT have the th4 thf change into thf for TH.

Bad leadership and yeah people never learned from their mistakes. I kept saying, when I was in woa , that doing zones with 12 people is retarded. And even with 12 they are only able to do one or two NM. Spliting in 2 pt of 6 is far more effective, but need to have people stop leeching and work for it. Hell, imo with 9 you can also dual farm zone, 3+6, using the escape trick.

Same applies to limbus, its more effective to farm 2 chips at once. But I kind of understand why they never split salvage. Only time we did it, after I insist doing it, the people with me were those that were never in the "main pt" before, even after 1+ year didn't know how thing worked. Also that time, ares droped in the other group Celvantes wasn't in, which must pissed him off badly lol ( I remember him swearing in the LS he'd never split again).

 

[Hach]

Firstly Hach, thanks for bringing up the point about tardiness.

The linkshell run times never changed, go and check the forum:

(Thread closed, so I'm copy and pasting):



As you can see the rules contradict themselves, but the system Celv used was to dock half your earned points if you were late for a run (but still made it). You got no points for not participating.

I've never once marked anyone as being late on the attendance sheet unless you turned up after the specified times.

Celvantes marked people late if you were one minute outside those marked times. I was more lenient and gave everyone an extra 15 minutes on Sunday. Hardly groundbreaking, but I expected people to start gathering together 15 minutes beforehand, in an effort to tidy up the persistent lateness of our runs. On my clock, people got marked late for turning up in the ls at 18:01 GMT Sunday, 23:01 GMT Wednesday. (13:01 and 18:01 EST respectively).

The only 2 occasions you were left behind (the last 8 months), you turned up in the ls when we were already in Al'taieu. We were on both occasions already late leaving Jeuno. One of those times you were approaching an hour late. You should be the first to admit you had difficulties for a good long period of time with your timekeeping. Others in the ls will be able to confirm it, but really trying to fabricate something isn't a good sign.

We had a major problem with timekeeping in the Ls. Not once, ever in the time I was in the Ls did we start a run exactly on time. Not once, ever did we run early. The vast majority of the time we started 20-30 minutes late, and it sometimes got as bad as over the hour mark.

If you recall a run starting early as you claim, then you are clearly mistaken in your recollection. I'll reiterate for you again, never, not once, was I able to get any run started on time. For whatever reason it was always, on every occasion, late. This is compared to the times Celvantes posted (quoted above). I'm not proud of it, but in the end there was only damage control as to how late we were, and sometimes people had to be left out who had turned up too late.

I actually know of the forum thread you're talking about, since it's closed I'm going to quote it all here, in it's entirety:

Spoiler:

It was clear to everyone that we had confusion regarding run times on the odd occasion. Especially so during changes for Daylight savings.

You were always a really likeably guy, and I found you amusing, but unfortunately, you always had issues with your timekeeping. At the end of the day, you are the only person who has control over that.

Negative. Wrong. Anyway, I always think you are a nice guy too just a bit too silent. Let me clarify a few matter.

1) I have being absent almost every wednesday since that incident.

2) Point is NEVER ever a concern after I changed to Nashira. I continue to run for 1) to return the people the favour who get me my homam gears 2) to get AF+1 items and most importantly 3) To lot the A.coins. I believe I have always state in ls I want the AF+1 item. To refresh your memory, remember, Ultima chest.... does that remind you something?

2) I have NEVER lie in this game over serious matter. This is an online game, not as if i need to lie to avoid punishment... i can just stop playing. There is enough of lie in reality and I do not see the need to lie.

3) I never say you are punctual otherwise you will not say I am late for 10+ mins. At that time the party was at Port Jeuno and I was going to Jeuno through the Whitegate way which will not take more than 2 mins. Just to reclarify matter, I was on approx 6pm and is totally IMPOSSIBLE that i am late for 10 mins if the start time is 6pm. At that time I was talking to Khajit about it too if he can remember the incident. Sadly, I just check all my screenshot and I am unable to find it. The issue was more of you accusing me for being late for 10+ mins and teleing the party when I am at Whitegate.

4) Is not really I have a strict time control problem but more of like I lost the motivation to carry on. When I was homam gear, at that time I have to wake up 1 hour EARLIER (Since I live in an area without Day Light Saving) and I was seldom late. (I was late sometime i admit). It get really tired when i put in effort to wake up early to make run and being accused of being late and denying me of the run to get AF+1 which i always one.

My apology I did not give detail on that situation to let you misunderstand. I thought you will remember but in conclusion, 1) No you are a good leader and do wait for late comer according to YOUR OWN START TIME. 2) I was irritated and you never seem to admit that 6pm is the start time for wednesday. 3) I got tired, start missing Wednesday run.

To reiterate, Arezael you can be a good leader, one that ask people to come stuff and being fair. However you are too silent. A good leader must also be expressive and not let their members think what the leader is thinking.

 

[Mirewen]

As BK was around before it was passed to Q, I'm not exactly sure what your talking about.
As a member that has been absent 2 months due to winter workload, it sucks to see this happen. As a member who has watched the ls pass leadership twice, it is due to people whining about nashira. If you want an all ultima/all the the time ls, start 1 don't - hijack1.
I was not there for the run people are speaking of ... so I have no comment on that situation. I will say some people thought they were above the attendance rules & we usually were waiting on them to start the runs. Its interesting to me in my own opinion that these tardy people were the same people constantly nagging about nashira. I recently finished my homam set thanks to 4 years of waiting. We have had 3 leaders during this period and a well chosen leader in Celv's absence.
I would like to say thank you to those who helped me to complete my set. As for the new ls I wish them the best. After posting this maybe i won't be pearled but hey, i stuck with BK for the attitude of the people & the attitude had changed before I left for the winter.

"Thank you, Come again"

Ah, I'm talking about the revamped one. And I didn't whine about Nash, that's my point. I stayed regardless of what we did. That's why I'm wondering why people are getting all uppity, if you don't like the rules then don't join.

 

[Uzor]

To reiterate, Arezael you can be a good leader, one that ask people to come stuff and being fair. However you are too silent. A good leader must also be expressive and not let their members think what the leader is thinking.

I do not believe this for 2 seconds. He's always been very vocal in every shell I've been in, and I refuse to think he'd turn from vocal to silent simply due to his position.

It does, however, depend on what you mean with "silent", I suppose.

 

[Arezael]

Hach I have no issue with the fact that the Wednesday run time was supposed to leave Port Jeuno at 6 PM GMT. Several members had problems staying longer for that run due to other (RL & In-game commitments) and I would always try to make that run on time or as close to it as possible. As I have said previously it was more relaxed on Sunday because people had a greater leeway for time.

I am sorry you've avoided runs because of being left behind, but it really is sometimes necessary. Various people have had to miss runs due to having been too late, you and I are among that number. It happens, and although I perfectly understand your ideal of waiting ~10 mins, if someone else turned up, who wasn't in the gather together area (Port Jeuno), we'd have had to wait for them since we'd done so for you. Someone else could turn up in the time it took them to get to us and so on and so forth. At some point we had to leave, with or without latecomers, or we'd have been waiting forever in a domino effect.

I can honestly say we were never able to start a run at the appointed times, we always had to wait for something or other, they were all late. I'm sure you felt you were dealt with harshly, and I'm sorry you feel that way. However, I'm equally sure you were late to the run and perhaps by not long, but when we cut off the time and left, that was it. We simply can't run an ls where we can wait for every late person all the time, people have things to do, you will need to bear that in mind.

If I stated you were late by 10 mins and the number was less, then you have my apology. If I could make it so everyone had the time to wait for everyone else I would, and you would have not been left behind at all. Unfortunately that was not the case, and we sometimes have to grin and bear the fact we all miss runs from time to time.

 

[Rappa]

I don't know about how it is in other limbus shells, but in Lamebus unless you specifically tell me before start time that you're going to be 5-10 minutes late, I'm not going to wait for you. The only times we start late are when we have to start a tues run late because of occupied zones on sat nights, when I have to revise something that we're doing, or when as mentioned before someone lets me know they will be a few mins late. This isn't dynamis where you are trying to organize 25+ people and have a lot of bookkeeping to do, it's a simple event requiring fewer people who shouldn't have to wait for latecomers to show up.

 

[Silenus]

This, uh, "escape trick" you speak of...

 

[Ewok]

The mismanagement has been pretty bad too. Seriously. You guys entered a week or two ago into Porrogo madness with 12 people and only did 4F when you had 2 people with lv 75 thf. It's either that or you entered 2 groups in and decided to NOT have the th4 thf change into thf for TH.

I'm not too amused by celvs coments lately either. well ok partially true. I am amused by him placing the blame on me for lold since that means they got hurt as a result of what they did to me which makes a little spark of glee within my heart. However considering celv outright said " And Khajit,this wouldn't have happened if it weren't for you. I hope you're happy" before placing blame on me for lold and woa i'm starting to get the impression he wasnt even truthful to the woa ls about what happened.

Mismanagement... nevermind all the times YOU died on pulls you were supposed to be good at. As I recall, a couple of the failed attempts for his body was due to your mistake(s). MDK and Uzor can comment on how the shell was run, because they are very efficient at Salvage. You were at best our equal, no more. I didn't mind you making these mistakes, but don't presume all the blame lies squarely on everyone else's sholders. And as far as the outbursts in WoA, I blame both you and Kohra. You could've held your comments, requested privately that Celv talked to Kohra, and then left if it wasn't resolved. I don't know if you know it or not, but Celv and Greg were upset with Kohra as well. But, I forgot, everyone is out to get you.

Bad leadership and yeah people never learned from their mistakes. I kept saying, when I was in woa , that doing zones with 12 people is retarded. And even with 12 they are only able to do one or two NM. Spliting in 2 pt of 6 is far more effective, but need to have people stop leeching and work for it. Hell, imo with 9 you can also dual farm zone, 3+6, using the escape trick.

Same applies to limbus, its more effective to farm 2 chips at once. But I kind of understand why they never split salvage. Only time we did it, after I insist doing it, the people with me were those that were never in the "main pt" before, even after 1+ year didn't know how thing worked. Also that time, ares droped in the other group Celvantes wasn't in, which must pissed him off badly lol ( I remember him swearing in the LS he'd never split again).

Problem people at the top tend to not realize, not everyone is capable of doing things flawlessly. I wasn't happy when you 3 left, not just because you were good, but because you all had 3x the experience any of us had, probably 5x that of either Greg or Celv. Think back when you first started, were you running things that perfectly? As I recall, you were with us when we were having Celv main tank on PLD, gearing him first. Celv admitted to not being as good with Salvage as you were, but has attempted to fill those shoes anyway. I do believe he has come along way. Also, outside of a few of us, there has been a constant rotation of new people.

I dont even see why Khajit wouldnt be allowed to lot the body. Did he not have the points to be first? Doesnt that mean he already paied for it in full? Thats like telling someone you cant buy the milk cause you didnt help milk the cow.

Isnt the whole idea of a point system that when you get something, you have already earned it and paied for it? Would it be ok for him to miss a run prior to the omega run, and then come and spend his points?

The whole point of attendance points is that people show, and on time. If he didn't show to a farming run, and an AF+1 item dropped as he logged on, should he be able to lot it if others who were there on time wanted it? I really don't think so.

 

[Caerloc]

The whole point of attendance points is that people show, and on time. If he didn't show to a farming run, and an AF+1 item dropped as he logged on, should he be able to lot it if others who were there on time wanted it? I really don't think so.

If you had to pay foints for it i certanly think he should have the right. Points are currency you already earned. A measure of how much you contributed to the group. If you have more points, you contributed more, no matter how many times you were late.

If you dont pay points for af1+1, then no, he shouldnt get to lot.

But if you dont want people who come late and miss runs to get tiems, then dont use a point system. I personally dont agree with point system in general, but if you use em, then you need to let people use their points.