Illegal Immigrants, support or against?

Answa~ said:
Everyone here has to learn English through their whole learning career, it doesn't hurt, and it lets me communicate with you guys.

Also, it'd be nice if you'd come back into topic.
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US English or England English? cuz both are english :P

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Strid said:
One day a sissy, like many of you, will be in office and illegal border crossing will be lifted, so to speak, and the U.S. will be battered in disease, economic struggle, and all that comes with mass herding. One day a sissy, like many of you, will be in office and people will do some pretty awful things to our country. Maybe begin a war here or keep picking with terrorist tactics, I know you like that one... it makes you cry more than a baby when momma takes her tit off, and nothing will be done. America will be destroyed and all it stood for gone. I'm just waiting patiently and practicing my shot... for one day I'll be a sissy hunter.
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3 cheers.

Shai, although this is "crude" and what I had previously said was also "crude", and yet nobody came down on it like you said they would.
If you stop with simple assumptions like that, maybe you won't be making bigger assumptions either.


If you are not a legitimate citizen of the U.S., or you do not posess documentation that temporarily allows you to reside in the U.S., you do not belong here. It's that simple.
And I am all for harsher treatment of offenders. Make a statement. Walk the talk, and otherwise just shut this shit down. The fact is that this country has let this happen and hardly lifted a finger.

I'm with Strid on this, and I wouldn't hesitate to take aim and shoot to kill an illegal (as many as I could) in the event that the situation ever truly became chaotic. Is anyone running through my backyard and trying to break into my house today? No. But the day that happens is the day I kill a man...Or woman or child. I'm not going to discriminate if they don't.


Illegals are taking advantage, and this country has basically let it happen up until now. This issue is growing larger day by day and if nothing is done, people, no, Americans, will take it upon themselves to put an end to this.
 
Shaidalyn said:
I live in an English speaking country (currently...)
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Hmm...last time I checked we didnt have an offical language. While the current majority may be English it is not the offical language of the country. We are a country of immigrants, just because one language may be the majority at any given time it does not mean that is the language of the country, check back in 10 years and by your standards we may be a Spanish speaking country.
 
Sneakypants said:
If you are not a legitimate citizen of the U.S., or you do not posess documentation that temporarily allows you to reside in the U.S., you do not belong here. It's that simple.
And I am all for harsher treatment of offenders. Make a statement. Walk the talk, and otherwise just shut this shit down. The fact is that this country has let this happen and hardly lifted a finger.

I'm with Strid on this, and I wouldn't hesitate to take aim and shoot to kill an illegal (as many as I could) in the event that the situation ever truly became chaotic. Is anyone running through my backyard and trying to break into my house today? No. But the day that happens is the day I kill a man...Or woman or child. I'm not going to discriminate if they don't.


Illegals are taking advantage, and this country has basically let it happen up until now. This issue is growing larger day by day and if nothing is done, people, no, Americans, will take it upon themselves to put an end to this.
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I respect your opinion, yes many feel that the US government should do something about the illegal immigrants in the country, but what happens when we pull out the estimated 12,000,000 illegals (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900) from the US. Take in mind that the majority of these workers are not pulling from unemployment (meaning that if they arent working they arent getting anything). Of those 12,000,000 it is estimated that just over 60% hold full time jobs. What happens to the country when we drop over 7 million full time employees that do the jobs that other people feel too good to do? Other people argue that they are costing us money by using Emergency rooms, etc (public goods where no ID is checked until after the services are complete). However, the taxes that they would generate would be greater than the services and unemployment that they would draw (the system is set up so that the government makes money, while that is in jeapordy now under the Bush Administration tax cuts). The issue is not as straightforward as just kicking everyone out.
 
Sneakypants said:
3 cheers.

Shai, although this is "crude" and what I had previously said was also "crude", and yet nobody came down on it like you said they would.
If you stop with simple assumptions like that, maybe you won't be making bigger assumptions either.


If you are not a legitimate citizen of the U.S., or you do not posess documentation that temporarily allows you to reside in the U.S., you do not belong here. It's that simple.
And I am all for harsher treatment of offenders. Make a statement. Walk the talk, and otherwise just shut this shit down. The fact is that this country has let this happen and hardly lifted a finger.

I'm with Strid on this, and I wouldn't hesitate to take aim and shoot to kill an illegal (as many as I could) in the event that the situation ever truly became chaotic. Is anyone running through my backyard and trying to break into my house today? No. But the day that happens is the day I kill a man...Or woman or child. I'm not going to discriminate if they don't.


Illegals are taking advantage, and this country has basically let it happen up until now. This issue is growing larger day by day and if nothing is done, people, no, Americans, will take it upon themselves to put an end to this.
Click to expand...

Wish the indians had slaughtered all the peckerwoods as they got off the boat. There would be no colonization and most of you would be in the UK with shitty ass weather and fucked up teeth.

As it so happened, they didnt, got owned for all their land and a slew of immigrants jumped on ships and came to the US.

I wonder where some of you live when I read what you guys write, because as has been posted before, immigrants pay into the tax pool without taking out since they get jobs (waiters, bussers, janitors) with someone elses SS number. Most of the undocumented workers are the construction workers and gardeners.

Im guessing most of you arent from CA, NM, TX, AZ as you would see actual illegals instead of what gets painted to you by the media in your area.

As for someone running around your backyard...wtf did that come from, youd better check the trailer parks or the 'hood for that guy, cause it isnt a wetback. wetbacks if they are doing illegal activity it would be crossing drugs into this country. Wtf is the media telling you midwest honkeys?
 
lol

I don't care what happened in the past at this point...How are you and I part of that?

I also don't care about what will happen when illegals are gone. Get rid of them and deal with the future of the country with its legal citizens only.



What part of illegal do people not understand?

Sure you can go into discussions about Indians of the past and ramifications of removing millions of people, but what is the point.
We discuss slavery still, but what have any of us got to do with it? NOTHING. If there's a hang up on that, that's a personal problem.

We're spending time speculating on what will happen to our country if we remove illegals to the tune of 12 million people...There's something fundamentally wrong with that. Mostly that they are illegal and have no right to be here...However, in the vein of what I said above, and also what I previously mentioned, what's done is done, and they are here now...I'd be happy offering the current illegals the opportunity to gain legal citizenship, but if they did not or could not become legal, then they would remain illegal, and should be deported. At the same time, they should not be allowed back in, unless it is via legal methods.


Meeze, if the Indians slaughtered the white man, then there would be no black man in the U.S. today either. :)
But they did not, because they could not.
Do I think all that crap was right? Not really. Pretty messed up.
However, today, when I am alive and have a mind to speak, I see things that are also messed up, so I have my chance to take some part in talking about it. The past is the past.

Nobody is claiming this to be straight-forward. There will be consequences, but consequences I would be happy to deal with, knowing the country doesn't have illegal citizens.
 
I do a lot of construction work, so I think I have a firsthand account of illegal immigrants taking over jobs, at least in that field. My dad's business is the only one that has an exterior crew of anyone who are not of a hispanic background, and that is because he is in a partnership (two people; the main reason I say exterior is because most interior work, like plumbing, is done by white and black people). It's gotten to the point where Lowes and Home Depot have added Spanish to each and every sign in their stores (and that really doesn't bother me). These hispanic people also get paid in cash, unlike most other people who work on the site - it's more than obvious that the majority of them are not legal. Most of my construction work is done over the summer, however.

This last school year, I worked at a Food Lion (grocery store). About a third of the people who could not speak English purchased their groceries using government aid - food stamps. I know they aren't all illegal, but I believe it is safe to assume that at least a third of that population is illegal just based on the sole fact that even their children aren't speaking English. I do not mind you living here and purchasing our groceries, but if you want federal aid, make an attempt to learn English and become legal. You don't see me moving to Germany and not speaking German. Surely a lot of them know English, just as a lot of people from the US know Spanish, but it's silly to expect everyone to understand you and for you to not make an attempt to learn their language. No, knowing how to say "thank you" is not enough. I smile every time a hispanic person speaks or attempts to speak English, and I usually respond back in Spanish.

If you want to take advantage of the supposed "American Dream" and you're not going to do it legally, at least teach your children the language that is used in our public school system (and maybe even teach yourself some in the process). I'm all for learning some Spanish, and I have by choice (mainly because I wasn't allowed to take French), but I don't think it should be a requirement.

Sculli said:
Knowledge is power, as beaten of a phrase as that is. The more the merrier. Americans are already the least educated of the top industrial nations, anything to fix that is a good thing in my book. Language skills broaden the intellectual horizon.
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I don't know where you're pulling this information from, but in the world, the United States is the 14th most educated country. I assume by most industrial, you mean: Australia, Canada, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, and the United States. A bold country is more educated than the United States, and an italic country is less educated than the United States. Don't believe me? Check out this web site.
 
meeze said:
Wish the indians had slaughtered all the peckerwoods as they got off the boat. There would be no colonization and most of you would be in the UK with shitty ass weather and fucked up teeth.

As it so happened, they didnt, got owned for all their land and a slew of immigrants jumped on ships and came to the US.

I wonder where some of you live when I read what you guys write, because as has been posted before, immigrants pay into the tax pool without taking out since they get jobs (waiters, bussers, janitors) with someone elses SS number. Most of the undocumented workers are the construction workers and gardeners.

Im guessing most of you arent from CA, NM, TX, AZ as you would see actual illegals instead of what gets painted to you by the media in your area.

As for someone running around your backyard...wtf did that come from, youd better check the trailer parks or the 'hood for that guy, cause it isnt a wetback. wetbacks if they are doing illegal activity it would be crossing drugs into this country. Wtf is the media telling you midwest honkeys?
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I think the historical precidence for morality is a bit more laxed than present day. I could counter that argument by saying, "Why should there be a democracy? Your ancestors all lived under a monarchy! Why should a person expect medical treatment in today's world when years ago they could expect nothing." Fact is times change.

Also many illegals I know of don't have fake tax IDs. They are paid by disreputable businesses under the table. That's for example why there's debate about what rights illegals should get if any. Well minimum wage is a no brainer, because if you can pay some people in the work force under minimum wage, than it becomes unprofitable to compete with companies that use illegal workers with legal workers. The problem isn't the illegals, it's how they are exploited and the effects of the exploitation on the legal workers. If you had to pay the same wages to them, and provide the same services, then legal citizens would have a clear advantage, as they should. As it stands in jobs that need no special skills they have a clear disadvantage, the laws.
 
Antor said:
I don't know where you're pulling this information from, but in the world, the United States is the 14th most educated country. I assume by most industrial, you mean: Australia, Canada, Japan, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, and the United States. A bold country is more educated than the United States, and an italic country is less educated than the United States. Don't believe me? Check out this web site.
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Antor, what you are looking for 14th ranking education is only a stat saying how long the average person spends in school. While, this would be a very easy way to judge education it is a very unrepresentative statistic. A sad but true fact is that what you learn in an hour in one country may not be the same as what another person learns in the same hour in another country. They may spend a long time in school but this does not represent how much the people actually know. There is currently no end-all answer for judging who knows the most. Much of what we consider intelligence has to do with our exposure in the society that we live in. There may be many things that I learn in my society that someone living in Russia might not be exposed to on a day to day basis. But at the same time someone in Russia undoubetdly learns much that I do not learn here.
I am currently unsatisfied with the American education system because it is not adequately representing multiple world views on many issues. Also the amount of time that children in school here spend on math and science are much lower than in other countries (perhaps this is why the president pushed for his math and science reform). I am dissappointed that American schools teach us nothing of different world views such as socialism (of its varrying forms) and other world idelogies. We are bombarded daily in the popular media to think that our current system is the only system that works. But I could rant about our government for a long time...
 
Seems I misread the information. Either way, I seriously doubt the US is the least educated of the most industrial countries.
 
Antor said:
I don't know where you're pulling this information from, but in the world, the United States is the 14th most educated country.
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Regardless of the content of your reference, since when is being 14th something one can be proud of when there are only 15 contenders in the game?
 
If education sucks...Health care sucks...Lots of things suck in the U.S. lol
Why do so many people risk so much to live here illegally?

A) I use the word sucks loosely, becuase it's still a great place to live. :)
B) The punishment (or lack of) for living here illegally is in no way a deterrent


12 million people is quite a number. That speaks volumes for how much priority our government has placed on border/immigration controls.
What a joke.
 
I am dissappointed that American schools teach us nothing of different world views such as socialism (of its varrying forms) and other world idelogies.
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I can't comment on other schools, but mine had several that studied and discussed foreign governments and other world cultures (this would be the world view you refer too). The class I enjoyed most was called PACE, Political awarness curriculum education or something along those lines. Guess what? No one wanted to take it. We had all of 15 students out of a 3,200 student class body take it. Those types of classes aren't offered much because students don't care and don't take it. They are apathetic. I studied socialism and communism in my government class as well as our current government in depth. The education is there, just no one wants it.

As for world views, its called sociology. Covers many world views from different angles and is a big class for freshmen in college too.
 
Rones said:
I can't comment on other schools, but mine had several that studied and discussed foreign governments and other world cultures (this would be the world view you refer too). The class I enjoyed most was called PACE, Political awarness curriculum education or something along those lines. Guess what? No one wanted to take it. We had all of 15 students out of a 3,200 student class body take it. Those types of classes aren't offered much because students don't care and don't take it. They are apathetic. I studied socialism and communism in my government class as well as our current government in depth. The education is there, just no one wants it.

As for world views, its called sociology. Covers many world views from different angles and is a big class for freshmen in college too.
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Yeah, a great deal of the fact that no one wants it here is because it is put in such a negative light and tons of people dont care. When you hear most people talk about socialism and communism they immediately think of Russia, Hitler, or China, when those are far from true examples of socialist ideals. While those countries claimed to be socialist countries they were far from. The Bolsheviks in fact took away a revolution of the people and put power into their own hands. Its just sad to see how little people here actually care.
 
Well if all you want is study of communism and socialism, that gets covered in economics courses...and how they fail. Honestly, I don't think its just our county's bias. Communism doesn't work and socialist economics is a crippled version of capitalist economics. There is a reason the US has a GDP that surpasses everyone in the world by a large margin and all countries with massively growing GDP have or are in the process of switching to capitalism.
 
I don't have time for link hunting but I know you well educated young men/women/other can handle finding things on your own or already know of them...... how about you discuss the fact that a leftist organization put out WATER HOLES for ILLEGALS in the desert? Hmm... It's "inhumane" to let the -ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT TRESPASSERS- die from dehydration D: oh noes....... wtf?
If someone can justify this, I'll happily say to open the borders.......
 
Rones said:
Well if all you want is study of communism and socialism, that gets covered in economics courses...and how they fail. Honestly, I don't think its just our county's bias. Communism doesn't work and socialist economics is a crippled version of capitalist economics. There is a reason the US has a GDP that surpasses everyone in the world by a large margin and all countries with massively growing GDP have or are in the process of switching to capitalism.
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You seem to be forgetting one major thing. We are 8 TRILLION dollars in debt right now. With a Trade deficit increasing every year. There is no way on earth that we can continue on our current path if we continue to outspend what we make. Here is a link to a government website (Flordia House of Representatives). http://www.house.gov/schultz/iss_budget.shtml And how can you know if socialism will never work if it has never even been tried on a large scale (in the true definition of the word, not what Hitler called Socialism, cause that isnt)?
 
debt is good for a country :| (granted... not that much >.>)
 
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